RMS TITANIC 1912

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

That's interesting Paul, I didn't realise it was documented to that extent. Of course it was the logical place for them to end up. There is a reference in one of my books to the Olympic having three lines of lifeboats along her boat deck following the loss of the Titanic to accommodate everyone on board. The ship was extensively rebuilt in 1912 to raise the internal bulkheads and fit double skinning to the hull.

The third ship Britannic had massive gantry davits on the aft end of the boat deck which could launch several boats.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

If you thought the Titanic was….er….titanic

Think again

Here's a modern cruiser for comparison!

Bob

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

In the 1960s, R. Carpenter wrote a series, Historic Liners. The December 1965 issue featured this plan of the Olympic. I think it was, as built as the lifeboat numbers and layout were identical to the Titanic. Miniature plan could be easily modified to Titanic or Britannic.

Plastic kit manufacturer Minicraft are working on a new tooling for a 1:350 model of the Olympic. Rumoured to be ready for sale December 2016. Would be nice to see this alongside their already in production 1:350 Titanic – R/C conversions for someone?

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you, Tony

Why would they need new tooling for the Olympic?

Sounds like only the box lid needs to be retooled???

Bob

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

The Minicraft 1:350 RMS Olympic

**LINK**

and their 1:350 Titanic

**LINK**

Many others are available from the likes of Airfix, Revell etc. I like to occaisionally build a plastic kit, but seem to get told off by the family for the smell the cement makes around the house. Must try the non-toxic Testors brand.

With models such as the Titanic and Olympic, my thoughts are that you are leaving yourself "wide open" to the rivet counters who will state where a mistake has occurred. Perhaps Bob Wilson has the right idea in choosing ships to model which aren't well known.

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

Construction of a life-size replica (of the Titanic), has commenced in China.

**LINK**

**LINK**

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I agree with Tony and Bob. Choose a subject which is hasn't already been done to death, is interesting and on which nobody can challenge whether you have got it right or not. That way you only have to satisfy yourself!

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Colin

In my experience there is always someone who will challenge the authenticity of any model no matter how obscure the subject.

The Internet gives the gloss of authority to any key tapping moron who has time to kill or an axe to grind.

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

On the telly tonight (Monday 5th December)

BBC2 9pm The Britannic, a documentary into events leading to the sinking of the ship in 1916

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

On telly Channel 4 New Years Day 8pm 'Titanic; The New Evidence.

What do you know about the Mount Temple?

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I very much doubt if they will come up with anything new, this has all been done to death umpteen times but never underestimate the willingness of the ignorant to milk the Titanic story for the gullible public!

Colin

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

Colin makes a good point about the Titanic being 'overdone' to say the least, however a good account of her sister ship Olympic is covered in Mark Chirnside's book.

The book was updated in 2015 to include some of the latest research. The Olympic had a quite a few mishaps of her own – the Hawke incident, the sinking of U103, the Fort St. George & Nantucket Lightship collisions and the 1933 voyage of Ivan Poderjay who was suspected of murdering his wife and disposing of the body through a porthole. There is a lot more in the book which a proving to be an interesting read.

Not a book for anyone looking for model building details (plans etc.), although there are some good photographs.

Edited By Tony Hadley on 29/12/2016 09:22:21

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

Don't be so negative, in a world of infinite possibilities there is always room for fresh theories especially when they involve official cover ups.

If the British Board of Trade can hold an inquiry into its own short comings then anything is possible

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

In the case of conspiracy theories vs incompetence the latter wins hands down every time in my book.

But really, how can you second guess what the Master and crew of the Mount Temple did or didn't do at the time?

If there was really any solid new evidence for blaming the Mount Temple (which I assume this programme is about) then it has had over a hundred years to manifest itself so I think that all we will see is some Tristram's attempt to reinterpret existing information to jazz up a programme that would otherwise have nothing new to say. That is the usual situation with Titanic related programmes (and books)

Cynical moi?

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Sometimes it is good to revisit past events and re-examine them through modern eyes, these days an catastrophe such as the sinking of the Titanic could be regarded as corporate manslaughter and there would be no chance of an 'official' whitewash investigation.

I don't know if Sundays programme will include reference to Mount Temple, Almerian or Carpathia but there was many references to these ships in the transcript from the British Wreck Commission’s investigation into the disaster.

The programme might examine the quality of the iron plates that were used in the construction of Titanics hull/keel between the bilge keels.

Cynicism is a good thing

Paul

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

I suppose we'll watch the Channel 4 programme because I doubt there will be anything else worth switching on for (as usual). We'll try desperately to avoid Jools Holland until about 11.59 for the Bongs and then hope there's a decent firework display on TV from the London Embankment. After that we'll raise a glass of Prosecco or Cava to the new year; hope it's not quite as bad as the old one, and then watch the local fireworks displays – very noisy things and scary flashing things, as stolen from most corner-shops in NG3 and NG5. £25 for one rocket??? You must be 'avin' a larf!

Cynicism is unavoidable unless you are brain-dead and/or voted for……. (never mind).

DM

BTW Does anyone know how to rotate seven gun turrets? If so, please stay quiet…………………it's keeping lots of people occupied elsewhere!

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 29/12/2016 19:10:40

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul, they were steel; plates, not iron, and that is another subject that has been done to death. It is unlikely that the bottom of Titanic's hull would have been affected as the ship sideswiped the iceberg so the damage was along the side of the ship. Whilst the hull plates may have become brittle to some extent in the cold water depending on the amount of impurities they contained, it has been pretty much conclusively established that the cause of the leakage into Titanic's hull was due to the pressure of contacting the iceberg 'popping' the riveted hull seams. Given the draught of the ship the splits would have admitted huge quantities of water at high pressure which would have simply increased as the ship sank further.

When I had my own little yacht it was fitted with a speed log which passed through the bottom of the hull and was contained within a surrounding wooden box fixed to the inside of the hull. It was probably about ten inches below the waterline, if that. The working element was a vertical paddlewheel which protruded below the hull and turned with the movement of the boat to register the speed through the water. When sitting in the marina for a week or two weed tended to grow in the paddlewheel mechanism stopping it from turning so the normal practice was to withdraw the unit from its tube and clear it, temporarily substituting a plug instead. The changeover had to be done within a couple of seconds or so as once you removed the log unit the water came in at a terrifying rate and could fill the enclosure intended to contain it if you were not careful. This was a 1.5 inch hole at 10 inches depth so just imagine what a split seam on a ship's hull at 30 feet depth would be like, it would make a fire hose look like a water pistol!

There is simply no need to postulate weak plating etc. etc. Just creasing a hull seam for a few dozen feet would be enough to admit uncontrollable flooding. But the conspiracy theorists unfortunately lack the basic knowledge to appreciate this.

And that is why I'm afraid I have no patience with meeja people claiming to have discovered something that everybody else has missed.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

The metallurgical analysis of the lower hull plating from Olympic revealed a significantly larger content of iron than carbon, this could be due to a desire to have a more malleable product allowing for the more complex plate bending found in the lower hull or more likely imperfections in the steel manufacturing process where the steel plant failed to meet the high temperatures required.

Just like the plating rivets the hull plates contained a high quantity of slag which would have significantly reduced the strength of the hull plating and this had to be a contributing factor in the ship sinking so quickly.

There is simply no need to postulate weak plating etc. etc. Just creasing a hull seam for a few dozen feet would be enough to admit uncontrollable flooding. But the conspiracy theorists unfortunately lack the basic knowledge to appreciate this.

I am not a conspiracy theorist but I do have the knowledge to calculate the fluid dynamics of water flow into a vessel and the size and length of the hull creasing simply wasn't large enough to allow entry for the quantity of water required to sink the ship in the time it took the water to breach the bulkheads. There had to be a larger hole somewhere else below the waterline.

Dave

Why is it so difficult to make seven turrets turn?

Paul

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Paul

I have no idea, but it's taxing some (allegedly) great minds, including our esteemed Website Editor. I haven't found a Fairey powerboat with seven gun turrets which I want to model and so, until I do, this problem will remain academic.

DM

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

We shall probably never know the extent of the underwater damage to Titanic. Seams certainly failed, but as you say, that does not preclude the possibility of more extensive damage to the hull plating which was only a single thickness above the double bottom. Certainly the steel in use then was of relatively poor quality and less ductile than that used today and the low temperature would have accentuated its brittleness However, if the seams failed along 300 feet of the length of the ship, possibly on more than one strake then that, together with plates being fractured or displaced would have sealed the ship's fate. I don't think that the relatively poor quality steel was exclusive to the Titanic as some people have suggested, it was proably typical of its time ind in general shipbuilding use. Interestingly, old iron hulls have survived much better than steel ones, presumably because the iron was more malleable. It some respects it was a better material but of course much heavier than steel for a given application but I imagine you know a lot more about this than I do.

I do recall seeing a calculation a while back based on an assumed split of about 3 inches in width over an extensive length of the forward hull which suggested that the water ingress amplified by the pressure at depth would have flooded the forward compartments as was observed.

It is also interesting that when the Titanic's near sister Britannic was mined, the fact that many lower deck portholes had been left open for ventilation greatly increased the rate of sinking.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dave

I've tried to find the thread on Mayhem but had no luck, could you send me a link please.

Colin

Late Victorian era steel is known for having quality issues in fact the structural engineers of that time preferred to specify riveted iron for buildings / bridges as it had well tested characteristics.

I have often wondered how much influence Britannics double hull had on its sinking although a big hole in the side and all those open portholes worked fast enough.

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

Britannic does seem to have sunk rather quickly even with the open portholes. There were suggestions that the blast from the mine explosion distorted the structure and broached internal watertight integrity.

The big liners of the day were pushing engineering limits I think. The German ones were particularly bad. Imperator was so unstable that they had to chop the tops off the funnels and strip out the marble furnishings from the first class cabins. The ship was nicknamed Limperator as by the time she reached her destination ports on each side of the Atlantic her empty coal bunkers caused her to take on a list to one side or the other.

They also had a propensity to catch fire after a while as their electrical systems relied upon a single positive supply wire which was earthed to the hull structure. They were plagued with continual cabin fires caused by corroded connections in their later years. Very dangerous with all that internal woodwork.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 14:08:22

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

There is a report in today's Times that the 'new evidence' being reported in the programme is based on a 2005 theory that the well documented fire in one of the coal bunkers weakened the structure of the ship which was then excessively damaged by the iceberg.

It is also claimed that the reason the Titanic was speeding through the icefield was because the firemen were frantically shovelling coal out of the burning bunker into the furnaces which made the ship go faster(!)

There is an online report from the Independent here:

**LINK**

They apparently also needed to get the ship to New York before it blew up????

Sounds like we are in for a shining example of good factual journalism then.

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Happy New Year everybody.
DM

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

And to you and everyone else Dave. May all your projects come to fruition.

Colin

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