Mersey Ferry PS Claughton

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Mersey Ferry PS Claughton

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26 November 2015 at 11:00 #7049
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
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26 November 2015 at 11:00 #61576
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
This ship has completely stumped me as I cant figure out how the paddles operated or even how the water entered / exited the hull to allow the ship to move.

So this is my winter project……To understand and maybe recreate this unusual ship.

A big thanks to Dave for presenting the challenge

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 26/11/2015 11:02:54
26 November 2015 at 12:52 #61581
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
The first thing to do is the research:

A couple of hours on the internet looking up Victorian steamers with internal paddles has resulted in surprisingly little information.

The next step is to find out if the shipyard, D&W Henderson's and Co Glasgow, have an archive or if Mersey ferries have any records of the ship.

Paul
26 November 2015 at 13:08 #61583
Phil H1
Participant
@philh196021
Paul,

Looking at the picture just above, I can see a thin strip (just slightly longer than the brass stands). I can imagine a sort of scoop out the bottom of the hull towards the paddle wheel and beyond (symmetrical of course). Is that what you are thinking?

I had a similar idea to you i.e., have a go at building one but I'm far too slow. I'm still fiddling with a simple TID.

PhilH
26 November 2015 at 13:44 #61584
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Phil

I don't know what to make of it, I first thought that those strips were bilge keels but I am at a complete loss as I have never seen any ship like this before.

The research continues…..luckily the Clydeside yards are well documented

**LINK**

The sharp eyed amongst you will have noticed a slight problem.

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 26/11/2015 14:00:52
27 November 2015 at 00:17 #61596
ChrisB
Participant
@chrisb29081
Hi Paul,

could the hull be in the form of an inverted 'W' with the paddles working in the channels ( of the individual 'V s') ? A bit like a reverse catamaran.

I wish I could do a quick drawing here, so much easier than trying to explain in words!

Chris

Edited By ChrisB on 27/11/2015 00:18:34
27 November 2015 at 09:21 #61597
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
It might just be my imagination (or me old squinty eyes playing tricks) but there appears to be external paddles there – certainly on the top two photos.

Dave M
27 November 2015 at 10:54 #61598
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Mr Milbourn wins the prize…………..a 45litre bottle of Jackie Daniels best Chinese bourbon.

The paddles are externally mounted.

Unless the ship was built with inboard paddles which didn't work and the photos shows the ship at a later date after the paddle covers were removed.

More research is needed.

Paul

Dave you know what the doctor said about squinty eyes you need more roughage in your diet.

Edited By Paul T on 27/11/2015 11:02:19
27 November 2015 at 11:47 #61602
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Paul

Pleased that I was correct but that only deepens the mystery.

As for the Chinese Bourbon, I think you'll find that Chinese Litres are like Chinese Amps i.e. you need a lot more of them to fill the same sized container as the European versions – in this case the container is me! Having invested heavily in 1L bottles of JD for twenty quid a shove I now see that one of the other supermarkets is offering the 75cl bottles at £15. I shall soon run out of places to hide them.

Ho, Ho, Ho! Merry Christmas!

DM
27 November 2015 at 14:06 #61605
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Chris

An inverted W hull is certainly a possibility as the paddles would be contained within the hull but separated from each other by the wider central portion of the hull.

Thanks for the input.

Paul
27 November 2015 at 14:09 #61606
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
In 1886 Queen Victoria visited Merseyside and took a trip on PS Claughton, which explains this photo.

Still wading through various archives trying to find more info on this mysterious ship.
27 November 2015 at 16:51 #61608
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Some more research, this time relating to Queen Victoria's visit to Liverpool in 1886 when she cruised the Mersey on Claughton.

Unfortunately the artist hasn't detailed the area below the paddle boxes so its difficult to tell where the paddle wheels are.
27 November 2015 at 18:42 #61609
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
It is very possible that the paddles on the Claughton were built along the same lines as this steamer.

The lower sections of the paddle boxes are built as part of the upper hull and very little of the paddles can be seen

Paul
27 November 2015 at 20:55 #61614
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
It seems that the only reliable information is on an archive held at Glasgow university **LINK** so I have emailed the archivist to see if I can have access.
30 November 2015 at 14:33 #61639
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
A quick update which is self explanatory

Dear Dr.Thomason

Thank you for your email, which we have received safely.
We aim to reply to all enquiries within twenty working days.

Best wishes

Olivia
———————————

Olivia Howarth
Digital Preservation Trainee

Tel: +44 (0)141 330 5515
Fax: +44 (0)141 330 2640

Archive Services
University of Glasgow
13 Thurso Street
Glasgow G11 6PE
30 November 2015 at 18:23 #61646
David Wooley
Participant
@davidwooley82563
Hi Paul if any one can do it you can . I must admit it's really odd as there is no reason to omit the paddles unless they where concealed in some way . However looking through my own archive and returning to my visit to the Glasgow resource centre I came across a Mersey ferry model of the PS Primrose circa 1880. More food for thought perhaps but here the paddles are clearly visible with the paddle box extended as you would expect and a rudder in the foot of the stem or is it the stern?.

Dave Wooley
30 November 2015 at 18:36 #61648
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
Paddle steamers (and indeed other ferries) frequently had bow rudders to help them when going astern.

Looks like the paddles were simply missed off the Claughton model. Perhaps they just decided not to show the machinery or maybe the modelmakers jibbed at the idea of building feathering paddles! A closer look from underneath the model should reveal the truth!

Colin
1 December 2015 at 11:06 #61659
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Colin

You might be right but I have to assume that as the builders model is apparently missing the paddle wheels then the whole model might be suspect.

It could have been a shipyard concept piece and therefore possibly only useful as a reference for the eventual working drawings.

Hopefully it will become clearer if I can get access to the archive.

Paul
1 December 2015 at 12:15 #61662
David Wooley
Participant
@davidwooley82563
Hi Paul I have made arrangements to go and get a closer look at the model tomorrow morning . Hope this visit will answer a few questions . Also if possible I'll shoot a number of hull profile picture which may be of assistance.

Dave Wooley
1 December 2015 at 13:24 #61663
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Dave

Thank you, more information means better research and some square on photos of the builders model will be very useful.

During your visit could you ask if they have any documentation relating to this ship?

Paul
2 December 2015 at 08:31 #61671
Bob Wilson
Participant
@bobwilson59101
On the photographs of the real Claughton, I can see the paddle wheels thrashing the water! The long strips are bilge keels. I can only assume that the model is incorrect!

Bob
2 December 2015 at 11:32 #61676
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hello Bob

Thank you for joining in;

The photographs do indeed show external paddle wheels but you will understand that from a research point of view without definitive dates I cant pinpoint when the photos were taken.

The photos could have been taken some years after launch so I cant assume that the ship always had external paddles as these could have been installed at a later re-fit.

I agree that is highly likely that the ship had external paddles from launch and that they are simply missing from the model but I cant confirm this until all of the research is complete.

Paul
2 December 2015 at 18:36 #61681
David Wooley
Participant
@davidwooley82563
Hi Paul well here is the conformation . Colin was right the paddles where just left off for what ever reason . In fact it looks like they were never fitted. Well you where right Paul my original picture was misleading . I remember taking the picture as just another shot in a long line of models in retrospect I should have taken the very pictures I took today.

Dave Wooley
2 December 2015 at 18:57 #61682
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
Now we know, thanks Dave. We don't know who built the model though, maybe apprentices or someone who was happy working in wood and doing minor details but drew the line at the complexity of a paddle wheel. Or, as previously mentioned, perhaps they just wanted to show what the ship would look like in terms of layout etc. so reproducing the paddles was not strictly necessary.

Colin
2 December 2015 at 19:10 #61683
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Dave

Firstly I must thank you for returning and taking more photos.

I don't think that any of this has been in vain, far from it, as your original photos have created interest and discussion in a fairly obscure subject. We have also demonstrated how research is undertaken and how archives can be a fantastic source of information.

On a personal level you have re-ignited my delight in researching long forgotten buildings and ships and I have really enjoyed 'the hunt' to find the truth about Claughton.

I am still bemused as to why the paddles were deliberately omitted from the builders model so there is still chance for a twist in this particular tale.

The research will continue.

Paul
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