Building Ardent

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

Many thanks for your comments, Tim. I have no desire to build a racing boat and as you will see, from my photographs above, the draught of the 'Folly' hull is not very deep and it sailed beautifully. I am now 84 years old and, until I had to give up because of age and health, I enjoyed my 1:1 scale cruising yachts for the sheer joy and thrill of sailing and never indulged in racing. I build and sail entirely for my own enjoyment and my idea of a lovely yacht is the 'Folly' and any of the other designs by Bob Underwood. I have no wish to sail in extreme weather conditions (a fair weather sailor) and the extreme design of most model racing yachts does not appeal to me. Whilst appreciating comments I do not not wish to become involved in an argument/discussion about the pros and cons of racing model yachts, I think that there is a danger that this blog will be taken over unnecessarily – it is, after all, Eddie Lancaster's blog about the build of his Ardent and I really only wanted to add the occasional comment and keep an eye on his build as I am building the same, only slightly larger. I appreciate your advice about external ballast, Tim and may have to seriously consider going down that route.

Tim, I hope that neither you nor anyone else is upset by my remarks above – that is not my intention and if I am wrong I apologise in advance.

Derek.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Derek
​Absolutely no offence taken and I was just using my IOM as an example of extreme leverage. I have other boats with shallow keels and some with no keel at all.
​Why don't you start your own thread and then we don't have to worry about hijacking others. I will follow it with interest and if I get too annoying you can always press the "ignore member" button!
Tim

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi, Derek and Tim, don't worry about using this thread to air your views,I find it most interesting and educational.

Getting back to Derek's keel here is a photo of the twin keels for next winters build,

The boat is Duet by John Lewis plan No. BM1402. as you can see they are hollow so Tim's remarks have got me worried now, but my point is they are to carry 4lbs. 1.8 Kls of lead shot inside, as you can see from the ruler they are about 7" long internally and 1" wide at the maximum width and according to the drawing the lead will be about 2" deep to get that weight, Derek I hope this gives you some idea of the space you will need to create for your keel.

Eddie

Edited By Eddie Lancaster on 06/04/2018 14:59:00

Edited By Eddie Lancaster on 06/04/2018 14:59:40

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Eddie

​You are building to a design without scaling so I am not suggesting you should be worried by my remarks.

​A couple of questions:

​Is that open end of your keel at the bottom of the keel?

How are you fixing the lead shot in the keel?

Tim

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

Hi Tim and Eddie,

This gets more interesting (and intriguing) as it goes along. I wouldn't dream of pressing the 'ignore member' button, as it would seem rather pointless unless things reached a stage where things got completely out of hand and there was no other option – and we ain't there yet. We are all on here because of our enthusiasm for the hobby and skill in building.

I like the look of your keels, Eddie and they are almost exactly what I had in mind, only for a single keel. At one time I used to belong to the same club as Dave Metcalf (of Moonbeam fame) and I learned from him about the use of lead shot for ballast. Tim, once the necessary amount of lead is in the hull it can (should) be sealed by pouring in a very runny resin mix. This runs down into the shot and seals it into one lump. I don't want to start a separate blog as my building tends to go in fits and starts and, at my age, it tends to be a bit of a fingers crossed job.

Derek.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Eddie

I would glass cloth & resin round the outside of your bilge keels to give extra strength,, I guess they then glue onto stubs on the hull, tried to look at the Duet design, but the Sarik site is not liked by my tablet

Regards Ray

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

Just another little point (or two). The 'Folly' hull had two separate lead mouldings which could be lifted out of the hollow keel. I can't remember what the weights were but I believe that there was a main weight and another one to adjust the trim if necessary.

Eddie, I believe that John Lewis used to design and build International 6 metre model yachts and I think that, many years ago, I had one of his hulls which, eventually, I sold on as it had sat in my garage for a long time. It was a lovely moulding and, again, one of my regrets for not having built it although I would not have raced it.

Derek.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi. All, Wow! where do I start?

Tim the only thing I was worried about was water getting in were it is not wanted.

That open end will be inside the hull. I intend to fix them to two of the frames using the sides of the keel to fit into two slots in each frame, the keels are at a 12deg. angle, I will fit them into the frames before I plank it, they should then be firmly held in place and become part of the structure. I will then drill a hole in the top rib and pour in the lead shot plus the resin, I could, I suppose fill the whole keel with resin so that water cannot get in!

I will then glass the keels either before I fit them to the frames or afterwards if I decide to glass the hull as well, being quite a large hull I am going to use 3x10mm obechi for the planks, and with a coat of resin inside I think that will be strong enough.

Regards to you all.

Eddie.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Eddie

​You are right to try to keep the water out. Once in it is much harder to get out!
​If you pour the lead shot in first, the resin is not necessarily going to find its way past everything. You will only be able to thin it to a small degree without trapping the solvent.
​If you put the resin in first you wont know how much to put in and you are not likely to get as much lead in as desired.

​The best way is to pre-mix the shot and the resin into a mixture that will just pour and may sure your filling hole is as large as you can make it. OK you may waste a little bit to be sure of a complete fill but you are less likely to get any voids and the density will be as good as you can make it.

​Not wanting to bang on about it but filling with lead shot is not very efficient. It a perfect world the lead balls would weigh about 75% of the same volume but solid. As the balls will be going in random this reduces to a more likely 65% and if you add in the resin (which you can't leave out!) the density will start to get close to 50% of what you would achieve with solid material. On motor boats where one is simply adding weight and probably low down to aid stability it doesn't often matter too much if it takes up more space. On a sailing boat needing to resist wind heeling forces it does help to concentrate the weight where it works best.

Tim

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi. Tim thanks for all that info, you have raised a lot of points that I was not aware of before, but I am now, thanks to you. As one of the early model engineers once said you cannot scale nature, the wind and water are the same whatever the size of boat we are sailing!

Many thanks for your input to my continuing education in model boat matters.

Eddie.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

On the water at last! temp. 22 deg. wind a light breeze, had her on the water for about an hour and really enjoyed the time, only a couple of problems. one of the shroud cables slipped out of the the crimped brass tube, and the winch line came off one of the pulleys, but I didn't have to use the winch very much, most of the time once the a course was set she would sail hands off. I'm not sure but is she a little too low in the water at the bow? your comments would be appreciated.

Eddie.

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

Looks very nice, Eddie. Without looking, I think that there was something in the original article in MMI about that boat requiring a little extra ballast to get the fore and aft trim right.

Derek.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi. Derek nice to hear from you, I will have to look that article out and check it, may have to go out with it again tomorrow

Eddie.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Eddie

She looks good on the water, well done I've never had Much luck with running lines and pulleys below deck they seem to foul up eventually in a blow ! I favour the line kept tight with elasti/rubber as on the rg65's

Regards Ray

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Thanks Ray, I am going to use that system on the pond yacht, if the problem persists with Ardent then I will look at changing it to an elastic tension'd system, but I think it will still have to be below deck as there is too much 'clutter' above deck, Incidentally she has now been named Lady Anne after the sail maker.

Regards Eddie.

.

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Congratulations on a very, very pretty build, Eddie, that looks absolutely splendid on the water!

Mattias

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi. Mattias, praise indeed from a man with your skills at producing models.

Regards.

Eddie.

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

My 1:8 scale Ardent is progressing reasonably well. As you can see from the photo Eddie, I used your method of securing the stringers to the frames with cable ties and it worked very well. I found that, in spite of very carefully marking out and cutting the frames and all the notches, some of the stringers did not line up particularly well – did you have any such problems, Eddie?

Derek.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

I meant to ask you last night if there was any progress on your Ardent, that is looking good, and it takes me back a few months when I was at that stage, quite exciting and wanting to get onto the next part of the build! Yes there was a few problems with a frame and the position of the notches for the stringers around the centre of the hull, but I put that down to my method of drawing the frames by direct measurement onto the ply, I had to 'half sole and heel' a couple of the notches, a saying from my woodwork teacher when you had to put a shaving of wood into a joint to tighten it up. I did find a video of a full size sailing cruiser on you tube called Ardent and it looked very similar.

Eddie.

[Derek BradleyParticipant @derekbradley32270]

Thanks, Eddie. Going on my problems, I don't think that your measurements were in doubt – just errors on the drawings. Do you, by any chance, have a link to the youtube Ardent, if not, I will have to have a search later.

Derek.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Sorry I didn't make a note of the web site, I just came across it looking for model sailing yachts, and I can't find it again.

Eddie.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Spent this afternoon,over two hours, at the pond side at Abington park Northampton, sat on a bench watching Lady Anne sail up and down, the sun was warm the wind light to zero and had no problems this time only helmsman error

Stuck in the corner of the pond, so had to walk round to move it, I knew I should have fitted that auxillary motor!

I put 300 grams of lead right at the stern and I think she looks better, will try a few more grams next time just to see how it looks, the lead is courtesy of the pond yacht, but don't tell my friend!

Eddie.

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Hi Eddie – she certainly looks very good on the water, especially with the extra ballast.

One thing I've got to ask though is about the gap between the roof and the sails as it looks quite large and my eye keeps being drawn to it (the designer in me I'm afraid!). Is this as per the real thing, proportionally obviously?

Chris

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Thanks Chris, yes the sails and mast dimensions are as per drawing so I suppose must be in proportion, I have just put a rule into the cockpit and there is over 8" from the floor to the boom, more than enough room for the helmsman even if he was stood up, I can lower the mast by about 1 1/2" if you think that would help.

Eddie

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

I have been talking to my friend who owns the pond yacht, other than the pond yacht that he made when he was at school he is not a model maker but most of his life has been spent around boats and at sea, he noticed the same about the mast and sails that you mentioned Chris, the mast has now been lowered by 1 1/2" giving 6 1/2" over the floor of the cockpit, the jib has been lowered by over 3" to just above the cabin roof and all the stays and shrouds have been shortened,you will have to wait before I can get more pictures taken and uploaded. Thanks for your continued interest and useful input to the build of Ardent.

Eddie.

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