Spider J

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Gareth, just looked at the vid of the supercharged springer (of which i approve) and am reminded that SOME brushless motors do make an awful whining sound. SOMEONE at our pond swears by Turnigy G-somethingorothers, but they make an atrocious racket and although they do do the business, I would use something else personally.

This is not too much of an issue with your application as it for emergencies only, however….

The in-runner on my KM is totally silent, the new brushless on proj No1 makes a pleasant sound but is not totally silent.

By contrast, the brushless speed controllers appear NOT to make the giveaway singing noise most of the brushed ones do.

I salute you, anyone who can muster the wherewithal to make that many frames (twice) deserves a medal, or something.

aSHLEY

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Ashley,

I chose Turnigy on the basis of:-

1. I had heard of them from the time I used to build electric aircraft

2. Diede van Abs recommended them to Bob Abell and he seemed to know what he was talking about

3. There was a vast choice so I thought I was bound to find one in the parish I was looking for.

4. It would not be an expensive mistake if it did not work as well as I hoped

It is reasonably quiet when running under load but whines a fair amount at low speed. Occasionally it does not respond to the throttle on start up but emits a loud screeching noise. I am going to try and reprogramme the ESC when I get the right programming card. I think it might be something to do with the accelleration rate (present setting is maximum possible, I think) or the brake function, no idea how that works yet, there were no instructions with the ESC. Pushing forward the frontiers of model marine engineering can be difficult but interesting.

Gareth

[Amy jane SeptemberParticipant @amyjaneseptember49770]

What a great photo Kimmo!

I'm enjoying watching her take shape, Gareth. Those ends are going to be fun to plank….

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Gareth,

the photo coincidence was spooky, not the place, which I looked up on trusty G****** maps and found just up stream the Humber bridge on the S bank, and of course, directly opposite North Ferriby. I assume these were the old ferry stations.

Amy Jane, I am sure you realise it was not I that took that photo (?) and for you and Gareth a final trawl through my sailing barges photos produced these two below. The first is a wonderful model of a keel (without engine) and the second at an unknown location, but it looks to be on tidal river, showing Humber sloops – would be a very weird coincidence if this is South Ferriby, wouldn't it!

Kimmo.

Gareth, for your rigging references.

Who knows where this is, it is dated 1930.

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Kim,

I am pretty sure that picture is the mouth of the River Hull, Victoria Pier on the right and the oss wash on the left (where they used to wash the osses, for those of you who cant speak Hullish.)

Heres a later picture of the same area.

Gareth

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Progress on Spider J has been a bit slow over the last few weeks. We had some preparatory work to do for our Vintage Model Yacht Club stand at Haydock Park and I am now into that final month prior to going back to work for the winter so I have to complete all the major decorating, gardening and DIY jobs as the first priority. We also have to ferry our daughter and all her stuff back to Lincoln University which will be tomorrows job.

However I have managed to get all the stringers glued in place in the hull framework.

Where there was a tight bend near the front and back ends I laminated an extension to the 6 x 6 mm pine stringers using 3 or 4 layers of 1.5 x 6 mm ply.

The position of the stringers was marked and cut when the frames were cut out and all are effectively horizontal. That works quite well on the two upper ones but the aft end of the lower one has to twist and be pushed inboard to follow the run of the hull. With hindsight I should have stopped that stringer about 6 or 7 frames further forward and run a separate stringer along the underside of the hull which would have been a much straighter route. Anyway I will know now for the next hull. Here's a picture showing the area in question.

I have also modified the canted frames at the aft end so that the inboard pair are now fixed to the skeg rather than angled outwards. This will provide a lip on which the planking can be fixed to the skeg.

After giving the framework a good sanding and trimming to get rid of the edges and corners on some of the frames I fixed the first section of the hull sheeting to one side of the bottom last night. The inner skin will be made from 2 mm ply and 2 mm thick lime planks. Lots of clamps were used to hold it in place while the aliphatic resin glue dried overnight. However the curvature is quite gentle and there are no difficult double curvature or concave areas to struggle with.

Tonight the ply sheet on the other side has been glued in place, this time using batteries along the keel since its not possible to fit clamps to that area now.

The next job will be a bit of planking to get round the corner on the outboard edge of the hull bottom and the run of the hull towards the rudder skeg.

Gareth

[Diede van AbsParticipant @diedevanabs87670]

Posted by Gareth Jones on 09/08/2014 21:02:19:

Ashley,

I chose Turnigy on the basis of:-

2. Diede van Abs recommended them to Bob Abell and he seemed to know what he was talking about

Gareth

A bit late of a reaction, but anyways…

The whining at low speeds is largely due to the ESC switching frequencies you hear through the motor, and that is probably also what you hear, Ashley. However it could be that there has been a bad batch, or just one poorly designed motor type – HobbyKing has pretty good quality control…. for chinese standards… so it might entirely be possible that this SOMEONE on the pond has either a bad q motor or a lousy ESC.

My experience with the gold colored Turnigies is quite good. Having said that, I don't have much experience with brushless motors outside of HobbyKing's range, and I don't have any hands-on experience with inrunners (what I and Gareth have are outrunners).

All the projects I have on the bench now, will have similar motors…

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Progress on Spider J has been slow but positive. Slow because I have returned to work for the winter again, become secretary of Goole Model Boat Club again and had to fit some sail winches in my wife's yachts again. On the other hand I have also, for the first time, started some experiments with brushless motors, built a Vintage Model Boat Co. Mr Tom, partly as a club have a go boat, partly to take on the Manx Model Boat Club's fun competition and partly as a brushless experiment. I have also begun to refurbish my one and only yacht, which sprang a leak last year and begun to design the flight control system for a 1/4 scale replica of a Blackburn special purpose seaplane to celebrate the 100th anniverary of the Brough site for BAE Systems. Brough is the oldest aircraft factory in the world, where I have worked on and off, but mostly on, for the last 45 years. The SP seaplane was the first aircraft to fly from Brough and the replica is being built to celebrate the centenary of the site in 2016.

However enough of my troubles, here are a couple of pictures of Spider J, which has started to look more like a real barge with the flat bottom and side skins fitted and the start of the planking over the areas in between.

The main skins are 2 mm ply and the planking is 2 mm lime in various widths, mainly 8mm, 6 mm and 4 mm.

Gareth

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Gareth

What a complex construction?

Are the bulkheads true to scale?…..The stern looks very curvy and a tricky planking problem?

Bob

[shipwrightParticipant @shipwright]

Hello Gareth,

I can only admire your skill, craftsmanship and patience. Amazing piece of complex carpentry. Look forward to seeing the progress on your build. What adhesive are you using to glue the frames and stringers (not sure that is the correct term – what I mean is the longitudinal component that goes across all of the frames). Do you steam those parts of the wood that curve at the stern ?

I imagine that the "1/4 scale replica of a Blackburn special purpose seaplane" is quite a sizeable aircraft. You also refer to repairing a yacht – is that model yacht or one that sails on the high seas ?

After a little bit of study I found that there is no mystique to brushless. The clever bit is in the brushless ESC which generates a phase locked 3 phase waveform. I use Mtroniks ESCs (both brushed and brushless) and have never had any problems.

Regards.

Ian

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Hi Bob and Ian,

The structure is not really very complicated at all. The frames are all the same outline shape and position as the real frames and they are taken from the original Warrens Shipyard drawings. Generally I use aliphatic resin resin glue for the frames, stringers, skins and planks. So far I have not had to steam any of the planks but the ones that curve around the bow and stern will probably need to be soaked in boiling water for a few minutes and bent around a former to take up something like the right shape before they are fitted.

The Blackburn SP will be around 18 feet span if we build at 1/4 scale and 25 ft if we build at 1/3 scale, to be powered by a pair of two cylinder petrol engines and, ideally to be flown off the River Humber alongside the factory just like the real thing 100 years ago. However we are going to practice off a hard runway first.

The yachts are only models, but Elizabeth's latest aquisition is her biggest yet, a 10 rater which is 80 inches long with a mast 96 inches high. It's a complete free sailer at the moment, no means of directional control, which is one of the reasons the previous owner sold it to us. Eventually it will be converted to dual control with the option of radio or a vane steering system.

I agree on the brushless motor situation, no great drama and not really any more difficult to match a motor and propellor than brushed ones. I now have a couple of brushless options which work well included in my database. Maybe I should update Colin Bishops thread of a few years ago or perhaps I will wait till I have got round to writing my planned Model Boats article.

Regards

Gareth

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Quite a bit of progress with the planking this week. The upper part of the bow has been done with 30 mm wide strips of 2 mm ply. There is very little double curvature on this part so wide strips cover a bigger area more quickly. However they did need a bit of boiling in a pan of water on the stove to soften them first. I clamp them around a suitable sized tin while they cool and dry in a reasonable curve to fit the hull without too much stress.

Four strips each side and the easy part of the bow is done.

The next bit is more tricky as the shape becomes curved in two directions so narrower strips are the order of the day and one edge has to be tapered to get the strips to lay as flat as possible on the frames.

At the back and along the side its much easier. I quite enjoy trying to work out the best area to work on where the planks will lie with the minimum of bending and twisting. The back end will be fairly tricky and need a bit of steaming to get the planks to bend around the stern.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that I could plank along the lower corner of the hull side using 8 mm wide planks. I thought I would need narrower ones because of the curvature of the frames but because its a long straight run the wider ones worked OK.

I think the next step will be to complete the other side to the same point and then move on to the stern, starting from the edge nearest the deck.

Oh, and by the way Bob and Paul, the prop shaft angle is exactly horizontal, no compromises here.

Gareth

Edited By Gareth Jones on 30/11/2014 19:15:46

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Gareth

With complete respect……..Is this mixture of hotch potch planking, based on the real thing?

How will it look when painted?………..Just nit picking, don't take offence

Now then……What about these horizontal propshafts?……I assume the full sized barge didn't have propshafts

So how are you achieving the so called impossible?

I suppose the props need to be above the hull bottom to prevent damage?

Best regards……..Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

This hotch potch planking is fine. It will be covered by a layer of glasscloth and resin and then some simulated steel plates and rivets to look just like the real thing – Spider J is a model of a steel hulled sloop. The earliest keels and sloops were wooden but I dont think any have survived, or any drawings of them so I don't know what the real planking looked like. However there is a nice half model of a wooden keel in the Maritime Museum in Hull.

Most keels and sloops were fitted with motors, starting in the 1930's. Heres a picture of the business end of one, I think it is Phyllis but I am not sure. Note the horizontal propshaft. Not that difficult to achieve in a Humber sloop model, just a matter of picking a motor with a suitable diameter and mounting it low down in the hull.

Gareth

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thank you, Gareth

All is under stood now, I should have known better………Shades of the hamster blooper!….eh?

I like the prop…..But why was it horizontal?

Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Bob,

Because horizontal is the most efficient angle.

If you mounted it with the propellor axis vertical, all you would do is stir up the mud on the bottom of the river.

Gareth

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Gareth…..I mean why horizontal…..Squeezing the drive mechanism down in the bilge water etc

When, with a 10 degree angle would cure the problem……Afterall….It's not a speedboat

Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Bob,

It was not difficult to mount the drive horizontal as the motor is only 35 mm in diameter.  Its just a triumph of simple functionality and design over style.  It's not that I am saying the Abell motor installation isn't well designed, just that its not well suited to a horizontal propshaft.

Its a sealed prop shaft so there will not be any water leaking into the hull, although being sail powered and having relatively little freeboard (compared to Shemarah) I suppose I might get some washed in over the deck occasionally. However the hatches have quite large coamings and should be reasonably well sealed.

It might be a speedboat though, the motor is apparently capable of generating 717 watts in short bursts, that's nearly a horsepower, if I fitted the right propellor.

Gareth

Edited By Gareth Jones on 01/12/2014 08:20:06

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Gareth

I wonder….Is it worth fitting a watertight wall round the motor, since it's pretty low down?

Just an idea

Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

It will be fine Bob, dont worry about it. Anyway it would probably run quite well under water, keep it cool when its belting out 700+watts.

Gareth

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Gareth

You might consider upgrading that U/J coupling. Those red things are good only for low RPM and there's no way it would take the best part of a brake horsepower. Many brushless installations use solid couplings or at least the metal variety favoured by powerboat enthusiasts. Have a shufti here, for example **LINK**

Dave M

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Thanks for that Dave, I might try one of those. The red plastic couplings do have the advantage that you can slide the plastic sleeve off the splines on the brass insert, which can be quite usefull during the build when the motor has to go in and out repeatedly. Its not that high a speed drive anyway, only about 7000 rpm.

I am not seriously thinking of putting 700 watts through the motor, just seeing if its possabell to wind Bob up into thinking my model of a 90 year old barge might be faster than his quad engined cruiser. It might persuade him to try something with even more motors than Paul Thomason's tug for his next project.

Gareth

 

Edited By Gareth Jones on 01/12/2014 10:32:20

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Gareth

Please don't go winding Bob up or trying to get him to change direction as I am looking forward to seeing the VGC on the water.

Another reason for not disturbing Bob is that I am hoping to enlist his building expertise on my latest design which will challenge all of his hydrodynamic and aerodynamic construction skills.

I wont be giving to much away by saying the new design is smaller than Ellie and has fewer motors than Thor but it will be the fastest boat that I have ever conceived and at top speed it will positively fly.

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Gareth

Sorry if I appear too critical, but a brushless motor is not really in keeping with your model

An old fashioned MFA 540 would be more suitabell? And one of those boxy Esc thingies?

Bob

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

I dont think you are being too critical Bob so don't worry about me taking offence.

I am just embracing todays technology. It might be a model of a 90 year old motorised sailing barge and I hope it will look the part from the outside but, on the inside it will be state of the art, efficient and reliable. My motor of choice would have been a Graupner 720BB Torque but they are just not available anymore. So, rather than look for an alternative old technology brushed motor I decided to use the opportunity to try something new. Even if I had used a brushless motor I would not have fitted a 'Bob's board' speed controller but a reliable efficient Mtroniks one.

Its a bit like the Abell drives in your latest model. I think with each new model we build we should try something new, push the boundaries a bit, learn some new ideas and experiment with different materials. Spider J will be the first model I have built where I want to represent a riveted steel plate hull so I have to decide what material to make the plates from, how to shape them to fit the curved bow and stern, how to stick them on, how to simulate the rivets etc. If everybody just kept on building the same type of model, the same way, over and over again life would be pretty dull. Doing something different makes it interesting and fun.

Gareth

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