Model Warship Turret Operation

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I have set up this thread to accommodate off topic posts on the Titanic thread and to stop DM feeling miserable.

Colin

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Colin

Thanks for info from the Times, aren't you posh reading the thunderer, the show on Sunday should be worth watching.

Thanks for the Mayhem link, I cant see what all the fuss is about as it has a straightforward mechanical solution although making the barrels rise and fall is a little more problematic.

Paul

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 14:07:03

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

Not posh, tried reading most of the others years ago and they are either too biased, inclined to make things up or are simply comics.

I don't think there is a straightforward mechanical solution that will enable the fore and aft facing turrets to all bear on the same angle between 0 and 90 degrees from the axis of the ship. There might be a complicated one though. I should like to hear your thoughts on this together with a rough diagram if possible.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 13:53:25

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

It is simple solution that uses Victorian technology to move all turrets in the required directions, no servos and no clever electronics.

Think of worms

Paul

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 13:53:53

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

If you mean a traveller on a motorised screwed rod then yes, the turrets can be made to turn in the same direction but I don't see how they would all POINT in the same direction. For a forward bearing the aft facing turrets need to describe a much greater arc than the forward one – plus 90 degrees I think.

Diagram please….

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 14:07:25

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Colin,

Can you tell me, is this Arduino thing that has generated 160 or so posts in a week on Mayhem, the same thing that people on here said was a one trick pony of no use or interest to model boaters?

Gareth

Edited By Gareth Jones on 31/12/2016 19:29:53

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 13:55:25

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Gareth, it is indeed – it was just awaiting its moment! All that was needed were seven turrets – sorry Dave.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 13:55:43

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dave

Sorry about bringing this turret nonsense over but I find Mayhem very difficult to navigate and I was curious however my interest stops here.

Happy new year to you and all.

Gareth

This is just a simple mechanical problem and the Arduino connection is irrelevant, btw I am reminded of the challenge that you laid down at the Haydock show a couple of years ago in which you proposed to build a model with greater manoeuvrability and pulling power than my Mighty Thor. Is this still on?

Colin

The solution is a lay shaft with worm drives at intersecting points with the turrets, a small geared motor turning at 1 rev / second (approx) would be sufficient to drive the shaft whilst slew rings on the bottom of the turrets would connect to the worm drive and give a turret the rotational speed to turn 90deg in 15 seconds.

The accuracy of the system depends upon all of the slew rings being the same diameter and having the same number of gear teeth. note:the slew rings don't have to be the same diameter as the turrets.

If the model is in two parts then two identical systems would be required but with both connected to the same receiver channel.

Your chums on Mayhem shouldn't need a diagram and calcs for this but if they do then I am happy to oblige (mates rates of course)

Paul

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 13:52:47

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

I don't think you have addressed the problem. You have simply described a mechanism for turning all the turrets by the same amount. There are plenty of ways to skin that particular cat.

How does your solution move the forward facing turrets through 30 degrees and the aft facing ones through 150 degrees simultaneously? That is the problem being pondered over.

Colin

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Paul,

Ref the Mighty Thor challenge, I have been sidetracked by lots of other interesting projects in the meantime, but I would not rule it out one day. When would the Mighty Thor be ready to take on any challengers? Can we see some photos of the model as it is at the moment?

Gareth

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Gareth

You might find it informative to go back and read what was actually said, as opposed to what you chose to remember. Here is the relevant thread, in which I can find no reference to Arduino technology being described by anyone as 'of no use or interest to model boaters'. **LINK**

If you read the full thread you'll see that you are on record as apologising to certain folk if you had offended them by calling them Luddites etc. After over a year since anything was added to that thread I wonder why you seem now to be having second thoughts and stirring up the whole thing again. It's not as if others have been clamouring to offer their contributions in the meantime, is it?

As regards Bob K and his model dreadnought, the 160+ posts on Mayhem have produced a lot of opinion but little in the way of a working solution – a bit like watching a bar-room full of football supporters argue about the team selection.

Dave M

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

As the model is split into two halves it would have two separate power trains that would be identical but handed (left / right hand) so when in operation each power train will work in exactly the opposite direction to the other.

This will satisfy the 150deg / 30deg conundrum.

Dave

Sorry for carrying on.

Gareth

Mighty Thor is now in bits as many of the parts have gone to other projects but there are plenty of photos, I simply wondered if you had managed to produce a viable contender

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 01/01/2017 15:18:17

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Paul,

I did inform the world that I would not be taking up your challenge to battle Thor quite some time ago, the link is here. **LINK**

Dave,

Maybe nobody explicitly said model boaters have no use or interest in Arduino as a control system but it was clearly the impression given by some of the posters, although not necessarily you, I hasten to add.

Gareth

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Gareth

Fair enough

Happy New Year

Paul

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Paul,

Thanks very much and a very happy new year to you too.

Gareth

[Kev.WParticipant @kev-w]

It's January 1st, time for all to ………..

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Sorry Paul, but I think you are entirely missing the point here, you don't actually have a solution for the problem. Best to let it work out on Mayhem where progress is being slowly made.

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

The problem that legs up the mechanical solution is that on the model in question, HMS Agincourt, the turrets are not conveniently all facing forward at the front and sternwards at the back. If it was a case of just wanting the turrets to have 3 basic positions, a simple mechanical system would be fine. But it isn't.

As we want more sophisticated effects, programmable devices will come to the fore. They need "only" the interface to be designed and the program code inserting. Could be quite a big "only", but the versatile nature of the beast means that they will find many uses, and will start to reach down from quite complex jobs like this one to much more mundane uses as knowledge about them increases and costs come down.

I well remember a well overpaid executive of my previous outfit (late '80's) asking "What use is a word presser?" (sic)

I imagine that within very few years a few subroutines in a PC were doing his job, along with the jobs of his typing pool.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Malcolm, I recall my then secretary being ecstatic about the introduction of electric typewriters….

You are quite correct that if this project comes to a successful conclusion it will be taken for granted and incorporated in many models as a matter of course as with all new developments.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 01/01/2017 19:54:58

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

If this is the correct version of HMS. Agincourt then I haven't made a mistake, the solution is simple and just as I explained yesterday.

The only thing preventing me from producing detailed drawing information is the position of the joint where the model is split for transport.

It might help your understanding to know that worm drives come with either left or right hand gearing.

But as you suggest it is probably best left to the grownups and expert engineers on Mayhem to solve the problem.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I like the worm drive idea and after having given it absolutely no thought, cannot see why it would not work, esp with lh and rh drives being available.

​Also without having given it much thought I see the issue is turning the early week days worth of turrets more that the weekends worth if training only say 20 degrees from dead ahead if you want to do a complete broadside. However having said that and now having spent five minutes thinking about it I do see the other issues.

​This is a model I might like to make in time for the end of WW1 event which we will have (possibly) in 2018 and I would be happy to have the turrets simply turn to give a full 90 degrees broadside as being effective and easy to do.

​I also have a 8 foot plan of the earlier 7 masted "black fleet" ship which I am considering, possibly.

Ashley

Edited By ashley needham on 02/01/2017 16:26:30

Edited By ashley needham on 02/01/2017 16:27:09

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Ashley,

This is a computer solution for achieving a broadside at 90 degrees to the vessel axis:

**LINK**

As you will see, the turrets only all point the same way when right on the beam.

And here is a specification for the Full Monty.

**LINK**

Colin

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Gosh that's too complicated for me. BUT I suppose if you are building the ultimate ship then that's what it takes.

Ashley

[John.RedearthParticipant @john-redearth]

Hi all. The luddite here

I just caught the tail end of this and this and would be a fantastic arduino project, and dead simple. The interesting part would be to use stepper motors, or just have servos powering each turret. A knob on the transmitter could be turned say 30 degrees to starboard and each turret could turn.. and can I say that it could turn in a very, how can I say it, sexy manner, to the required spot. 30 at the bow, and 150 at the stern. What a terrific project. John

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