Blackpool Model Boat Convention 2017

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

When we were very, very young, modelmaking was a mainstream hobby. Just about every boy made models, whether it was Airfix kits or something more exotic such as Aerokits and Keilkraft etc.

There was consequently more than enough business to support a small but comprehensive general modelling shop in every town selling kits and materials.

Now modelmaking is a niche hobby generally practised by the over 65s and many of them prefer to buy on EBay rather than construct their own models. There is no longer the local footfall to sustain local shops and those that do survive make their money by mail order and online. and even then they struggle.

High street model shops are dinosaurs and will share their fate, unfortunate but true.

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

are the model shows critical in maintaining customer connections and brand awareness? If they are, then the traders will stay with them so long as there are profits to be made.

Yes, but only as long as people support the model shows, DG. And that seems to be the nub of the problem highlighted by this thread. We were paying just over £500 for a 3 x 2 stand at Warwick five years ago, and that didn't include stand lighting, power or even a chair. I don't imagine it's got any cheaper since.

I am blaming the parents. Successive generations are now breeding 'instant gratification' into children. The process is enabled by the credit card (buy now, pay later).

That, m'duck, is a whole new can of worms! My 15-year old grandson didn't know there was such a thing as a model boat which you could actually go out and put onto REAL water and control it while it sailed….and he is a million miles from being an X-Box kid.One wonders what he thought I was making out in my workshop……

DG
"Builder of the model" rule? Yeah – I remember that. aka "The Rivet-counter's Charter". Belongs only in history, which is where has consigned both itself and all scale model competitions.

Sad, innit?

DM

[Mark Jarvis 2Participant @markjarvis2]

To Both DM and CB. not just the local model shop, Dave mentioned Beatties, what about Modelzone they were fairly countrywide. Look at our site sponsor, Airtek, i have been to the shop, it's small, very well stocked with "day to day bits" but they have a massive mail order wearhouse just for the internet shoppers.

Airtek, Servo shop, Skelmersdale, Ramsbottom all about 80 miles round trip. 10 liters of fuel, £12-00 before i start my model spending. Apart from Skelmersdale, the others are Air and Car orientated.

Pray we dont go the way of the builder of the model rule, then you had to tread very carefully if you used an of the shelf rudder, modified or not!!!!!

Sad, innit??

Mark

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 10/10/2017 19:48:13:

When we were very, very young, modelmaking was a mainstream hobby. Just about every boy made models, whether it was Airfix kits or something more exotic such as Aerokits and Keilkraft etc.

There was consequently more than enough business to support a small but comprehensive general modelling shop in every town selling kits and materials.

Now modelmaking is a niche hobby generally practised by the over 65s and many of them prefer to buy on EBay rather than construct their own models. There is no longer the local footfall to sustain local shops and those that do survive make their money by mail order and online. and even then they struggle.

High street model shops are dinosaurs and will share their fate, unfortunate but true.

Colin

Hmm…. I need to take issue with you there, Colin. Some types of modelmaking are still alive and well in the UK – in fact, more than alive. Wargaming figures, for instance. Games Workshop is probably the largest company of its type in the world today – leading anything the US or the Far East can do. It runs around 400 stores in this country alone, and did considerably better than doubling its profits last year. **LINK** This is a modelling field where we rule the world – and you can see that the profits are not small – £38.4m. These are plastic figures very similar to Airfix, they are assembled like Airfix kits and they have as much market as Airfix did.

Games Workshop is a good example of a model company which is primarily web-based, using its shops and the big shows like Salute as advertising operations rather than sales outlets. Have a read of their Business Model – it should make fascinating reading for a market sector which exhibits, I feel, a little too much self-pity and resignation. **LINK** They run an integrated package of models, books, games, films and strong defence of intellectual property, all designed to draw in customers as children and offer something interesting for every stage of development – and they have been very successful at it.

So I think that British modelling is as strong as it's ever been – just not with model boats…

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I wouldn't worry about using commercial parts to complete your model. Pure scratchbuildng as it used to be defined is virtually extinct these days. (along with the old type competitions)

There have been some very kind comments about my Fishery Cruiser Brenda in the November issue of Model Boats but although I intended her to be a pure scratch build, I ended up incorporating some commercial fittings in the end simply for the sake of getting her finished. As you get older you often don't have the time and dedication you had in your younger days and are more interested in the finished product rather then the process of achieving it.

Although she does feature some commercial fittings, Brenda is nevertheless as much to scale as I could make her and you are unlikely to see another example on the pond. I always like creating something that is to all intents and purposes unique, especially when the prototype is such a graceful design.

Colin

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

DG, fair points. I did visit the IPMS show last year and although there were many very impressive exhibits it just wasn't my cup of tea really. What people are doing is modding commercial offerings and while I respect the skills displayed, the creative tends to be in the painting and finishing of commercial products rather than actually building something. More power to their elbows but it isn't for me.

Interesting point about Wargaming. I and Phil Dunn were the founders of the Naval Wargames Society founded in 1965 and which is still in existence.

**LINK**

Happy days

Wargaming was a big thing back then and we had contacts on the military side too. Earlier this year I chanced upon the memorial to Brigadier Peter Young at the Special Forces Memorial near Ben Nevis and who was a keen supporter of the hobby. Brought back a few memories.

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 10/10/2017 22:33:03:

………….. More power to their elbows but it isn't for me.

………………….

Colin

I'm not suggesting that we all take up plastic modelling! But there's a lot of modelling work going on out there – I just think that Model Boating needs to get a bit more of the action.

I suspect that the lack of model boating ponds has a fair bit to do with it…..

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, it does help if you can actually float your boat..

That was the joy of wargaming, you just needed a flat surface, albeit a fairly large one.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

I hate to mention this, Colin…..But surely, Magazines in general are batting on a sticky wicket in this Digital Age?

A plus for Modelboats magazine, however, is the free plan, which is the main reason for my purchasing the Mag

Bob

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 10/10/2017 23:04:03:

That was the joy of wargaming, you just needed a flat surface, albeit a fairly large one.

Good grief, Colin — that brings back memories! When I was in my mid-teens 'round about 1980 or so, my best mate and I used to do naval wargaming of a sort!

As it was my friend who had come up with the rules, I've no idea, really, whether they were based on something that he'd read about, or if they were purely his own invention. The latter is a distinct possibility, as he was constantly inventing games of all sorts, but in any case, back then we could not imagine a better way of spending a Friday or Saturday evening than to meet up after supper at the club house of his scout troop (actually just a very large basement room), to which he had the keys, and do naval battles on our knees until the wee hours of the morning.

We built our own fleets at a scale which I cannot recall off the top of my head but probably somewhere or other in the span from 1:600 to 1:1200, and created a sufficiently large archipelago in which to "sail" these by throwing out different size squares of masonite more or less at random. I think I may still have a destroyer in a certain state of disrepair in my box of youth memorabilia; if so, and if I find it, I might post a photo of it …

In any case, I invariably lost — my mate was a rather clever chap, and a much better tactician than I was or ever will be — but it was huge fun! The same chap was also largely responsible for me getting into r/c model boats, not least by pointing me in the direction of my first r/c equipment (a four-channel O.S. Cougar set complete with servos; I still have it but it needs some serious service/repairs to get it back to a working state) …

Mattias

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Bob, it’s no secret that the sales of magazines have been declining for years and that many have gone to the wall, Marine Modelling being a recent example. The reasons (as with shows) is that people are turning to online content and shopping and, in our case, the increasing average age of model boaters.

However, there is still money to be made from magazines provided that enough people still buy them and costs can be contained to maintain a reasonable profit margin. With regard to costs it is perhaps pertinent to point out that this forum is essentially funded by the people who buy Model Boats although I rather suspect that a significant proportion of forum users only actually buy the magazine occasionally, if at all in which case don’t complain if the facility is suddenly withdrawn!

Interestingly it appears that sales of Ebooks have stalled as more people are reverting to hard copy which makes for a more enjoyable reading experience. I have a Kindle but I use it mainly on holiday to avoid having to pack a lot of books. I don’t use it much at home as I much prefer real books.

Colin

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Mattias,

Wargaming, yes, hours of endless fun and good brain exercise. No computers in those days, we relied on all sorts of laboriously drawn up hard copy probability tables and decimal dice – which I still have.

Research was also time consuming as information was harder to come by back then.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 11/10/2017 12:40:38

[Tim CooperParticipant @timcooper90034]

I used to play Warhammer 40K with my youngest son. I seemed to remember only winning of one or two 'battles'. This may be because my son picked the Space Marines, which seemed to be mostly indestructible. We played on large boards covered in green baize. I got the job of scenery making and figure painting. He once showed me a picture of a Space Port in the Games Workshop mag, ' Can you make me one of those, Dad?' Of, course I did!

I became quite good at the figure painting but didn't finish painting them till the lad was at Uni!

They are nearly all sold now, scenery and the figures. There seemed to be a market for the white metal figures, well painted. They went to France, Italy, USA, and most parts of the UK. I even had a request for making scenery for someone in Scotland, they were just bits of polystyrene and foam board painted with powder paint.

Tim

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 11/10/2017 09:27:09:

Bob, it’s no secret that the sales of magazines have been declining for years and that many have gone to the wall, Marine Modelling being a recent example. The reasons (as with shows) is that people are turning to online content and shopping and, in our case, the increasing average age of model boaters.

However, there is still money to be made from magazines provided that enough people still buy them and costs can be contained to maintain a reasonable profit margin. With regard to costs it is perhaps pertinent to point out that this forum is essentially funded by the people who buy Model Boats although I rather suspect that a significant proportion of forum users only actually buy the magazine occasionally, if at all in which case don’t complain if the facility is suddenly withdrawn!

Interestingly it appears that sales of Ebooks have stalled as more people are reverting to hard copy which makes for a more enjoyable reading experience. I have a Kindle but I use it mainly on holiday to avoid having to pack a lot of books. I don’t use it much at home as I much prefer real books.

Colin

This opinion is not shared by White Dwarf, the Games Workshop magazine, which has a monthly print run of well over 100,000, and temporarily went weekly for a couple of years recently. This seems to be seen as an integrated part of the total organisation rather than a profit centre on its own (though the price is still high!).

I'm pretty sure that there are many potential boat modellers out there. But the original modeller's magazines were all reactive – responding to the growth of a hobby interest in a section of the community and following it rather than guiding it. The new commercial imperative is to create a brand loyalty which is under the control of the commercial organisation, and grow that through viral marketing, using your customers as unpaid salesmen. We see this everywhere in web marketing – where initial profit is often sacrificed to build market share (so long as a VC is paying the bill!).

How might this work for model boating? Well, perhaps a defined and controllable brand – like a one-class racing hull. Perhaps a one-scale set of boat plans, like Ashley's battleships, building into a 'model boat world' a bit like Sim City? There's no point investing heavily in such ideas because many will fail before one succeeds – but that's OK, because hobbyists and model boat clubs can be persuaded to do the leg-work themselves? There needs to be a corresponding push to gather new adherents – that's going to be heavily web-based, probably emulating a site like this **LINK** and aimed at kids…

Several ideas there – but they really need a 'thought leader' to start experimenting with them. Like Model Boats…?

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All

I could'nt resist having my 10 pence worth, so here goes, being a child of the 1960's pre computers, we thought anything fast was "cool" so fast cars,boats,planes,railway locomotives were the pinnacle of achievement so we did our best to copy them in miniature., mainly because they weren't available mass produced and we wanted one. Back in the day radio control was the ultimate dream to be able to get your pride and joy to come back or land. Let's face it model boats are not "cool" for kids and not that great for grown ups they float and move about ! The dream started for me was the Beano Comic strip General Jumbo with his remote controlled army airforce & navy (He was cool) I've been building models ever since

Regards Ray

[Tim CooperParticipant @timcooper90034]

I thought that Games Workshop target boys (mainly) from 12 to 18 ish. Most play and buy for a few years then Drop out. If a few enthusiasts stay on, perhaps more interested in painting figures, that's even better. There is always another crop of customers on the way.

When I occasionally pop into GW in Nottingham for some paint I raise the average by about 30 + years.

My brother gets the blame for me being into model making (or toys as my wife says),  he built a lot of Airfix kits in the late 50's and early 60's, then stopped until he was 70 and has started making a few again, even using ( and losing ) photoetch.

Tim

Edited By Tim Cooper on 11/10/2017 14:46:47

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

DG, you rather airily suggest that 'Model Boats', should give a lead. In the whole of MyTimeMedia there is only ONE person with an interest in and knowledge of model boating and that is the Editor who has a full time job producing the magazine. It's the same with most of the other titles. Budgets are tight to say the least, there is no spare cash for speculative developments. There has to be an assured return.

The MAP days when the company was infused with modelling at all levels and had its own photographer etc. have been consigned to the mists of history.

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Several ideas there – but they really need a 'thought leader' to start experimenting with them. Like Model Boats…?

I think you seriously misrepresent the position of Model Boats magazine within the hobby and overestimate the work capacity of its editorial staff – who will number approximately one after Paul Freshney and Colin Bishop have both retired. Unlike Games Workshop, which has hundreds of staff at its HQ here in Nottingham, MB/MTM has no other commercial objective than to report on a minority hobby, and the vast majority of its editorial content is provided by "contractors" rather than staffers. There are no Vic Smeeds or David Boddingtons left.

The heyday of model boating was probably in the 25 years or so after the last war. Since then the proliferation of Almost Ready to Float plastic toys has all but killed off traditional modelling skills simply because they aren't needed any more. No ten-year old kid is going to set to and make his own model when he can ask Dad to fund the purchase of one which he can have in the air or on the water with almost no extra effort. There's also the fact that, with the steep decline in manufacturing jobs, good old Dad probably has no practical skills to pass on and would be unable to help little Jimmy if he got his longerons mixed up with his stringers… I've been watching it slowly happen over almost 50 years in the model trade and you know it's true. The only skills these kids seem to want to learn are centred on video gaming. Making model boats and aeroplanes as a kid has gone from being just slightly odd in my day to almost unheard of now. O – and it's probably not 'cool' either….

I'm told by a well-known model manufacturer that aeromodelling is beginning to turn its back on RTF models and go back to building from kits and plans. He believes that the skills are still there and will resurface as necessary. I hope he's right.

Dave M

I don't know about great minds thinking alike but I wrote this and posted it before I'd seen Colin's reply above. If we're both wrong then so be it.

 

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 11/10/2017 15:03:54

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 11/10/2017 15:08:00

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Tim Cooper on 11/10/2017 14:40:16:

I thought that Games Workshop target boys (mainly) from 12 to 18 ish. …………..

They target boys from 12 (and younger) with lower-priced packs and games, which you will have seen in the shops. Then, as they grow older, they target young executives with the more expensive sets – some figures costing hundreds of pounds. Finally, they run world-wide competitions and produce semi-professional kits under the brand 'Forge World', which run well over a thousand pounds, and would only be of interest to high-earning professionals.

You will only have seen the younger tranche of their customer base in a GW shop. Look at GW's statements about their company – **LINK** You will see that they are offering something for everybody – model makers, painters gaming enthusiasts, collectors – from all ages. Of course people drop out as the years progress, but GW is really intent of building themselves into a huge model-making industry, and they are succeeding.

All I am suggesting is that there are modelling customers out there if the appropriate business strategy is employed, but that the optimum strategy for the 1960s is probably not the best one to employ in 2020…

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

So Games Workshop is a slightly bigger organisation than MTM then…..

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Dave Milbourn on 11/10/2017 15:02:27:

Several ideas there – but they really need a 'thought leader' to start experimenting with them. Like Model Boats…?

I think you seriously misrepresent the position of Model Boats magazine within the hobby and overestimate the work capacity of its editorial staff – who will number approximately one after Paul Freshney and Colin Bishop have both retired. Unlike Games Workshop, which has hundreds of staff at its HQ here in Nottingham, MB/MTM has no other commercial objective than to report on a minority hobby, and the vast majority of its editorial content is provided by "contractors" rather than staffers……………..

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 11/10/2017 14:45:40:

DG, you rather airily suggest that 'Model Boats', should give a lead. In the whole of MyTimeMedia there is only ONE person with an interest in and knowledge of model boating and that is the Editor who has a full time job producing the magazine. It's the same with most of the other titles. Budgets are tight to say the least, there is no spare cash for speculative developments. There has to be an assured return………….

Two points – GW has hundreds of staff BECAUSE it is successful. I'm certainly not suggesting that Model Boats sets up a multi-national boat business. I'm talking about ;thought leadership' – which can be done simply by chatting to a club or a school.

And I am not suggesting any expenditure. There is no way that Model Boats can regenerate the hobby – that HAS to be done by commerce. What I am suggesting is that the magazine be open to the possibility that the hobby will revive, rather than thinking of reasons why it won't. DM suggests that the skills may have gone – I would suggest that the plastic modellers show that they haven't, and that his anonymous model manufacturer is right to expect them to revive.

[Paul FreshneyParticipant @paulfreshney24971]

A rare intervention by myself:

Before people offer ideas and suggestions as to how others should spend their time, both working and free, i would remind them of John F. Kennedy's famous speech that included:

'And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you — ask what you can do for your country.'

Paul Freshney – soon to be a happy ex-Editor!

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Well DG,

1: Do you subscribe to the magazine or buy it every month?

2. How many (if any) model boat shows have you attended in the last 12 months.

I think we should be told…

Colin

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 11/10/2017 18:27:16:

Well DG,

1: Do you subscribe to the magazine or buy it every month?

2. How many (if any) model boat shows have you attended in the last 12 months.

I think we should be told…

Colin

I fear you are misinterpreting my call.

I am suggesting that we do NOT follow the line that was being proposed earlier – trying to maintain shops, shows, and even (dare I say it?) a modelling magazine which were appropriate and successful 40 years ago but which no longer provide a service that many customers want, and consequently are in decline. So it would hardly be consistent for me to support any aspect of it – though I must admit to clearing out a shop's stock of bass wood last week, and buying the (very) occasional copy of Model Boats which has an item of interest.

I would like to see a far more lively web-based hobby, which is, of course, why I am active on it. I fear that trying to perpetuate a commercial structure which has shown itself not to be viable is doing no one any favours.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

DG you have rather confirmed my impression of you I'm afraid. You say you only buy the magazine occasionally and presumably never grace the shows with your attendance.. So you are a peripheral presence really.

Your suggested web based platform seems not to be very much in evidence. If the demand was there then it would be reflected in a degree of online web interest which seems lacking.

I think there is a division here between those who live in hope and those who recognise that this is a hobby in general decline but who are keen to extract the most from it despite this. There are still a few more years in the tank yet.

Dave Milbourn has made a very pertinent point that while the object might be to attract youngsters, it is in fact the lack of interest in the intervening generation that is the real killer. The so called 'millennials' are not practical people and are hard put to wire up a plug let alone anything more complex so have no practical skills to pass on to their own kids who are the ones you need to inspire.

Yesterday I had a plumber in to replace my toilet and washbasin. These days it is a real chore to do something like this and is cruel to my knees but the young chap who did the job was quite impressed with the original installation which I did myself 37 years ago.and made his job a lot easier than it might have been. The ability of the general population to do this sort of thing has been effectively lost. yet it used to be quite common.

Times change and that has to be recognised, unpalatable as that might be to us traditionalists.

As for me, I will just carry on with the modelling that I like and am familiar with.

Colin

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