Thames Sailing Barge Stuff

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Eddie,

Good day for a wedding apparently ! Which means all the Wood women, wife,daughters and granddaughters will be glued to the tv and not notice me being at the lake at Bluewater to try out my new Dragon Flite 95 staying tonight at Maldon Essex, so should be taking some photos of 12" to the foot sailing barges

Regards Ray

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

What wedding? I'm off to the lake at Wicksteed park this morning, I am also going to try a new boat, the racing Sparrow, but I will also take Ardent as I do enjoy sailing her. I will be interested to see some pictures of full size barges, perhaps some taken with modellers in mind?

Have a good weekend.

Eddie

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi all,

I would like here stated my opinion on the simplification of documentation for building model ships and boats.

I would like to say here that the simplification that applies to any part of the model is very problematic, and everyone can have a different view, and in many cases this prevents you from building a better model.

I do not like it when a ship's plan is presented, with the author simplifying it for various reasons.Simplification is perhaps appropriate for beginners, but I think that – if a modeller already has some knowledge, he will adjust or simplify the material according to his abilities and possibilities.

What specifically concerns tsb, as well as the structure of the boat's hull, also rig and rigging is brought to perfection, primarily by its purposeful simplicity.
It is therefore difficult to simplify the rigging. On the other hand – unfortunately, the basic problem is that you do not have a living crew on your model …
When I built my first barge model, I was also forced to compromise on how to modify the rigging to be both functional and easy to use when controlling the RC model.I was forced to simplify control of the sheets of the main sail and at vangs I missed the taclkes. Likewise, I missed the tackles used for sailing control, located at the foot of the main mast.
It is possible to omit the brails, these are not functional during the cruise, but it is an interesting detail that affects the appearance of the model….So we're back at the beginning … you have to decide how your model will be complicated, and what will be possible and controllable.

I wish you a lot of success in modeling and racing

Tom

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi Tom, some interesting points you make there, I agree that you need to begin with a true, or as true as is possible, at the given scale, drawing of an actual prototype, it doesn't matter what that prototype is boat, plane, traction engine etc. it is then up to the builder and his skills as to how he uses the plans,it also depends on what the final model/ miniature is going to be used for, display only, museum piece? it then has got to be an accurate representation of the full size.

Where I am coming from is that I am using drawings that depict a particular vessel in great detail, but I want to be able to sail it, and as soon as you put RC into it you are deviating from the full size! so how far do you go down the simplification path to make a viable usable model?

Best wishes

Eddie.

Edited By Eddie Lancaster on 20/05/2018 17:57:18

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Eddie,

did you get my message? Maybe I could help you with some items.

How far I can go down the simplification , I replied in the last post.here basically intersects the functionality with the requirement for accuracy according to the original…and so you have to choose .. Fortunately, our RC models are not(many times)the category of accurate models of historic boats – but still a number of models could compete in both categories .. of such qualities, but my models do not reach.

As people are saying here – because of this,… my head does not have to ache …

And  finally – when you look at the model on the water from a distance of two meters – so tiny miniature details are not visible anyway … so everything is "shipshape and Nelson's fashion" …

Tom

Edited By tomarack on 20/05/2018 18:53:41

Edited By tomarack on 20/05/2018 19:15:48

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi Tom, yes I did Get your message, I thought I had replied, I will do it again.

I suppose what I was trying to say or ask was what needs to be simplified to get a reliable working model and what scale detail can be left and even used to operate the model?

I have started to make the masts so that I can begin to understand how everything fits together and works.

Regards.

Eddie.

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Eddie,

the both letters were probably more delayed than I expected, I am sorry.

Some ideas you can find here > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SThTGAgl8Q

> and here http://barge.homeunix.org/index.php/barge-building/15-build-reports/84-notes-on-sail-control-by-kimosubby

I sent you some next items .. you must click on the link and then save the content somewhere on your PC , and unzip content .. I have no other posiibilities.

I believe. I answered you question ,,When I built my first barge model, I was also forced to compromise on how to modify the rigging to be both functional and easy to use when controlling the RC model.I was forced to simplify control of the sheets of the main sail (servo 1)and at vangs (servo 2) I missed the taclkes. Likewise, I missed the tackles used for sailing control, located at the foot of the main mast. Fore sail is freely attached to fore horse , Leeboards are mounted on the hook in the upper position, but it is possible to manually control them. You need rudder servo. staysail can be let free (manually control) I can teccommend here Ivor Bittle pages > https://www.ivorbittle.com/

It is possible to omit the brails, these are not functional during the cruise, but it is an interesting detail that affects the appearance of the model… Try to look at photos of barge models . You can see plenty of modifications. it is difficult to list all the possibilities of simplification.

I think of a pudding proverb that is best tested by eating…

I think you will come to a number of improvements and simplifications yourself during the construction … as it happened to me.

greetings

Tom

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Eddie,

here you can see my barge masts http://www.modelboats.co.uk/albums/member_photo.asp?a=48101&p=798921

the main mast is made from Alu tubes 14,12,10 mm dia, The brass wire of Jackstay is soldered to the M2 bolt heads that I screwed behind the back of the mast. …it seemed to me that it was the easiest thing to do

Tom

Edited By tomarack on 21/05/2018 18:55:51

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Tom ,

keep an eye on the mast if it gets wet, as brass and aluminium don't like each other. In fact even Stainless steel and aluminium don't like each other and galvanic action will soon occur and is very difficult to stop.

Cheers,

Martin

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi, Tom, as you say everyone will have a different solution to any given problem depending on their experience, materials and equipment, I like to keep as close as I can to the original but there are always going to be compromises at our sizes.

With your help and suggestions I now have a better idea of where I am going with this build, some parts will be to scale others will be functional, as soon as I have something to show I will post them on my thread Ardent and other boats, so that Ray can have his thread back!

Eddie.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Eddie,

Keep posting the Barge stuff on here, It's not my thread, I think it belongs to the subject

Lovely weekend at Maldon to celebrate 41st wedding anniversary, and my wife suggested it

Regards Ray

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi Ray, Glad you had a good weekend, you must have a very understanding wife to allow you out to photograph boats on your anniversary!

How did your sailing go on Saturday? I had a full day with my Racing Sparrow, just for fun, no racing, wind was very light to zero so was very laid back.

Thank you I will use this post for my TB build .

Best wishes and congratulations.

Eddie.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Thanks Eddie,

I think we are getting the hang of marriage now, the boss tells me what we are doing, and I do it

First time out on Saturday morning with my new Dragon Flite 95 light airs but handles well, cant wait to start racing with Graham and his crew down at Ashford

Regards Ray

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

The two most important words in a marriage 'yes dear'

By the way the new boat looks good as do the pictures of the fullsize.

Just received the new radio gear for my friends pond yacht, looking at the box it came in it has had a rough ride from China, it does work so must be made well internally.

Eddie

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

ANSWER FOR MARTIN –

Yes, I know such troubles, but there is always something to be invented…

From the back side of the mast I was drilling holes, cutting M2 threads and screwing in steel screws. Brass wire I soldered onto these screws.No problem….the screws are also  glued.
Galvanic problems – surely, they exist, model but most of the year is in a dry place and so I think mast lifetime will exceed the life of the model …

I even thought about carbon tubes , preferably conical, but I did not find the appropriate dimensions.

As I did not have suitable wooden sticks, so I had to choose this option.

Greetings

Tom

Edited By tomarack on 22/05/2018 16:35:08

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Tom, steel isn't much better, but if they're greased or painted you should be OK. Just a warning based on my fitting of an aluminium gutter all round the glass fibre bonnet of my Reliant van. Fitted to the GRP with stainless self-tappers, which very quickly got a white powder of doom round them after a few morning's dew. I had to squirt them with WD40 and a thin oil and that stopped it.

Cheers,

Martin

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Thanks Martin for warning,

however I know these problems . unfortunately I did not have a better and easier idea.

Likewise, the main mast of my first barge, Capricorn, is made and there are no problems yet

The mast is painted white, but the color does not hold on to it. …the aluminum …

Greetings

Tom

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Tom, if you're having problems with aluminium painting, try self-etch primer. I use it on everything from resin to aluminium and brass. Works well.

Martin

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi Tom, I think I am getting to grips with this TSB stuff, at last, I reckon that the only way to go is all or nothing! looking at all the pictures of models they seem to show all the detail of the full size only in miniature.

My problem is I am used to building in either 1/3 or even 1/2 scale so 1/24 is a bit daunting, but it is sooo much lighter and easier to handle even if it is fiddly!

The hull is no problem bur the rigging is something else, but as I begin to make bits and pieces it all becomes self explanatory, and what appears to be a jumble of wires and ropes and sheets all have a place and a job to do, so understanding that makes the job of making and fitting all the bits and bobs easier., all I have got to now is count up all the sheaves, blocks etc. and start to make them.

Eddie.

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Eddie, if you're having trouble with wooden boats and rigging you might enjoy Harold H. Underhill's superb treatises in 2 volumes on Plank on Frame Models. Apart from various construction forms there is a lot on prototype rigging and how to do it on models.

Cheers,

Martin

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Martin,

Mr. Underhill's work is one of the basic sources in building models. I had a chance to see the book, it does not solve e.g. a special rigging at Thames barges, but rather tall ships. Therefore, in model construction barges would rather recommend you books that relate to this phenomenon.
On the Internet, I came across an interesting publications related to the rig cutters, schooners and square riggers.

The author acquaintances himself in a clear way with the basics of the rig in general. Of course, each ship was unique in its own way, and the precise execution of the rig can be found mostly in monographs.

,Lennarth Petersson Rigging – Period ship models

Rigging – Period – fore -and- aft Craft

greetings

Tom

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Tom, Underhill's works are a bit more than basic, but I know what you mean. However he does cover cutters, but perhaps not barges. I am completely uninterested in square sail ships. I am strictly a fore and aft man with only the Norfolk Wherry as a barge type of vessel for me and indeed will be making a Wherry next. I do appreciate the look of barges, but not their rig. I'm a fussy devil.

The second of the books you mention?? Could you extend the description a bit for me please?

Cheers,

Martin

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Martin,

I had chance to read book Barges by John Leather..The author describes a number of modifications, say, Thames Barges, as they changed,according to the designation and construction site around the shores of England and Scotland…e.g, Yacht barges, Barge yachts,The Keels from Lincolnshire and Yorkshire,Sloops and BillyBoys,Solent Barges,Cowes Ketch,Cornich Barges,Devon bges,the Trows,sailing Flats from Lancashire and Cheshire,Mersey flats,Gundalows and scows from US..

Just on the edge .. do you know the interesting Piscataqua Gundalow ?? ask Uncle Google…

Tom

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

To Ray …

please excuse us that we were somewhat distracted from your subject

If you would like to get acquainted with the material mentioned above, please let me know

Thanks once more

Tom

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Ho! you didn't mention my favourite and my next subject, the Norfolk and Suffolk Wherry, a vessel capable of sailing closer to the wind than any fore and aft sailing craft.

But John Leather is a fine author on "our" topics.

I have to make a small sailing barge model for a scenic accessory range for a model railway company. I have already done a Fifie fishing boat for them. But I had to buy a book about barges and really enjoyed it.

Cheers,

Martin

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