Guardsman hull

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Hi folks,

 

I had a bit of a rush of blood to the head this morning and ordered a Guardsman hull from My Hobby Store. I built a wooden one back in the eighties, but it died a horrible death at the hands of my son, who was only little at the time- I still love him though! There are photos of it in my album.

 

My question is, what adhesive do I use to stick wooden inwhales to the vac formed plastic- I’m guessing epoxy on a roughend surface, but is there anything better?

 

I suspect the hull will arrive in two halves -so what’s the best thing to stick them together with?

 

My original was plated with plasticard and I would like to do the same again. Will liquid poly glue be OK for this or should I think of using cyano?

 

I happen to know there is another gent who would like to know the answers to these questions and I’m sure someone who uses this forum will be able to help.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Ian Gardner

 

PS I know building on a plastic hull isn’t really scratch building but didn’t know where else to put this.

 

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

What adhesive to stick to a vac formed hull?

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Ian,

 

Yes, epoxy on a roughened surface would probably be OK but not necessarily ideal. However, you might like to consider using one of the strong varieties of double sided tape which are intended to attach most materials to each other very permanently! They have an immediate grab though so there isn’t much scope for adjustment and when you have pressed the two components together then that is it! These tapes are used in industrial applications and for attaching trim to cars etc. Just Google double sided tape and you will get lots of hits.

 

Re your other question, most Vac forms can be welded with liquid poly cement. Test a bit when you get the hull. This can obviously also be used for plating with plasticard as well.

 

Colin

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Ian,

 

agree with Colin’s suggestions, double sided taped is excellent, I’ve used it in paper/card models too as the area of stick is controlled. Carpet tape!

Epoxy’s good, but can be messy to apply thinly for hull plating.

 

UHU power spray contact glue is useful, and it was my wife who suggested to me when I was frustrated by the amount of masking required “why don’t you spray the bit being stuck on”. To quote from Bob “eureka moment” spray bits on waste paper, stick on bits throw away mess. That’s the draw back, it is a spray but very good for paper to plastic stick ons and thin plasticard applications where liquid poly can melt through to the surface. It also seems to remain sticky till covered – hours/days.

 

AND lastly, “stabilit express”, a German two part glue, powder catalyst mixed into viscous base. This is supplied with a lot of German kits for glueing vac hulls and components into the hulls like engine mounts, ribs and supports. It does not melt the vac polymer, and it fills the gaps if there are any to fill. It sticks almost anything to anything and has a fairly long setting time based on amount of catalyst added.

 

That’s my two pence worth, Kimosubby

 

 

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 08/02/2012 08:29:48

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Thank you very much, Colin and Kimosubby!

 

I’d never have thought of using double sided tape and will research what is available. Having taken up carpet tiles stuck to vinyl with carpet tape I can see it doing a good job on this- just never thought laterally.

 

I’ve heard of Stabilit Express and if that is what is recommended by kit manufacturers for sticking wood to vac hulls it will be worth a look too- it sounds ideal really.

 

I must say I was a little worried about using liquid poly for the plating for just that reason of melting the hull, and the spray on glue sounds good- I have never come acrossUHU Power spray and again will look into it- sounds as if it might be just the job.

 

I was never thinking of epoxy for the plating, only the wood to plastic joints, but it seems there are better solutions. Up until now I have used mainly wood for modelling, not even much in the way of GRP hulls, so this is a bit of a departure.

 

I think this will take care of all my adhesive needs on this one so thanks again both for the very helpful and comprehensive replies- can’t wait for the hull to come now!

 

All the best,

 

Ian

 

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

I am also about to start building a Guardsman, after coming across the plan and build item in archives, but intending to choose the balsa/wood version. It is my intention to use a better quality wood for the deck (Vic Smeeds plan shows balsa), but still use balsa for the hull.

 

Some time has passed since I used balsa and I was wondering what is the best adhesive and finish for the hull? Glynn Guest tends to advise nothing more than Resin W in his magazine items. Is there anything better?

 

Hull filling and smoothing was always tissue covered in sanding sealer or dope or a fine denier ladies tight with the weave filled with paint and varnish. Again is there anthing better today as time, technology and materials have moved on?

 

Thank You

Tony.

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Just thought I’d mention that my Guardsman hull arrived this morning. My Hobby Store often seem to come in for some stick on this forum so it might be nice to recognise speedy service- I only ordered it on Tuesday, so can’t say fairer than that.

 

It is also worth noting that the hull comes in one piece- no joining necessary, and the bulwarks are included in the height of the hull with a nice clear line moulded in where these are to be trimmed down to. There is a slight split in mine at the bow on the centre line at the top, but this is easily remedied with poly glue and filler.

 

I’ve just ordered some Express and UHU Power Spray as I think this is the way I want to go. These two with postage cost more than the hull but there we go!

 

Thanks again for the help received on this and I look forward to hearing of Tony’s wooden build, it’ll take me back to my younger days.

 

I will add photos to an album as I go along.

 

With regard to finishing a balsa hull I would be inclined to go with a light cloth (or the ladies’ tights) and ZPoxy. I find this goes on well and is readily sandable. I notice in my Expo catalogue, that came with Model Boats, that it is possible to get a water soluble dope now- wonder what that’s like?

 

All the best,

 

Ian

 

 

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Hello Ian,

 

thought I’d try my own advice.

 

On a new thames barge I’m building I used doubled sided tape for the small scrolls bow and stern for fixing, applying the tape to the small item, trimming to exact shape, then removing backing tape and pressing firmly to hull.

 

For the stern pieces, I used the UHU spray, did one side last evening as a trial and have images of the second piece which went on today.

 

The boat, upside down, port stern piece on, and the other shown together with the glue.

 

I masked the area with a sinle sheet of A4 having run masking tape around hull curves, and the stern post and deck beam. The spray is actually quite directive. The piece for attachment was temporarily stuck to an upright spray board with a loop of tape and sprayed at the same time.

The masking removed, and the hull stood on her nose whilst the glue is allowed the “standing time”, in this case, 10 minutes.

Carefully positioned, if gentle with no pressure fair amount of adjustment can be made, then pressed home, using flattened edges to smooth outwards.

And finally, the instructions suggest a bit of applied pressure whilst the glue goes off – which is quite quick in warm conditions, I left this on for 30 minutes.

Any over spray does remain tacky, so I avoid as much as possible. On bare wood it dries out, on plastic or painted/varnished/sealed surface takes longer. I’m sure with some experimentation a suitable solvent could be found to “wipe” excess off without too much damage to surfaces.

 

I use this UHU quite a lot for card models, making the internal frames from plasticard, then sticking the card parts (decks/sides) to the plastic for added strength.

 

Kimosubby

 

A colleague of mine, well into his 70’s still swears by balsa and tissue, he used to build planes, now does boats. The finishes he gets are immaculate.

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Hi Kimosubby,

 

Thanks for the comprehensive and illustrated tutorial. Am I understanding correctly that you sprayed both the hull and the stern piece? My Power Spray hasn’t arrived yet so I can’t check the instructions- I thought your wife suggested you spray only the piece to be attached.

 

Cutting out those scrolls must have taxed the patience and eyesight, but they look really good.

 

The application of pressure might also be a problem if I’m sticking on plating – I will have to experiment. It’s possible I might be able to use tape to hold the plates down, or just fingers, if it isn’t too long!

 

I trimmed the plastic hull down to the gunwhale line on Thursday, but can’t get on until my Stabilit arrives. It’s certainly cleaner working with plastic- building in wood does generate a lot of dust in the workshop.

 

Ian

 

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Ian,

 

the spray is a contact adhesive, so as is the norm a small amount to each, let dry till tacky, then join together.

 

Its a question of size too, the barge stern is quite big, so sprayable. So both bits got done.

 

It is possible to just spray one component, but then join after spraying and keep some pressure on. This was when I got that advice, instead of spraying a 6″ hull to fit paper decking, and getting whole hull covered, I sprayed the decking piece and then fitted the deck. It does state that if one component to glue is very porous ie paper, then spray and bring together straight away.

 

I applied the weight to see if there was any difference – result – none that I could tell, the glue was stuck, so i would not use it again.

 

I think the plates will stick and stay stuck on contact. I used Miskin models copper plates for a period ship which I then motorised for “scale on water” events. They were double sided tape and not one (6 years) has come off or come loose. Of course they are varnished over too.

 

 

On a trial piece of veneer to plastic, after 24 hours (without weight) the only way to separate pieces was to destroy one or both. They were just pressed together and “rolled” with a wood cylinder to ensure overall contact.

 

Oh, by the way, the stern boards were printed onto “veneer” using an inkjet printer. So all I had to do was cut the large section out, trim to the stern allowing for a border of black and job done. I thought it cheating, but its no different to using vinyl letters for name boards or depth markings. That patterning scroll design would be hard to cut at full size, let alone 1/24, and its actually engraved with a chisel!

 

Kimosubby.

 

 

 

 

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 11/02/2012 12:08:07

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

All understood! I thought those scrolls looked a bit tricky.

 

My Power Spray has arrived since my last post so I can do a few experiments with plastic plating.

 

I did use double sided carpet tape to stick some rope coils down on a large scale steam launch once, and they did come adrift after a while leaving unsightly marks on my planked deck but you win some…

 

I don’t think there’s any such thing as cheating if the end result looks good and one is happy. It’s a good use of technology -and your suggestions all add to the body of knowledge.

 

Ian

 

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

When I mentioned double sided tape, I was thinking more of the types used in industrial applications as an adhesive substitute rather than carpet tape which is intended for a rather different application. The really strong tapes are used to stick things to aeroplanes!

 

Colin

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Sorry Colin (and Ian),

 

yes, I use the thin carpet double sided tape on the card/paper static models – but use a TESA double sided tape for boats afloat etc. I think the firm is “Apetape.co.uk” and is one of many I should think.

 

The TESA tape is used to stick things on cars, and screens into frames and has high temperature capability too.

 

Kimosubby

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

I just thought I'd mention that I have used thisPower Spray stuff for the first time and it is excellent. I used it to attach some rubbing strips onto a painted hull, having marked and masked off the areas to be glued first. Normally I would want to use some judiciously placed mechanical fixings ( brass nails!) but I though I would see how it went with just the contact adhesive. It went on like magic- a firm grab after a 10 min wait and such a neat job. It made all the masking work worthwhile.

So thanks Kimo for drawing my attention to this stuff.

Ian

[Dave_PParticipant @dave_p]

Hi Ian,

This may be a little late now as it looks like your question has been well answered but may I draw your attention to the latest MB special edition- materials & techniques. Having just finished reading it myself I have picked up some very good tips including various methods of bonding the different materials we use for building models.

Cheers

Dave

[captainslogParticipant @captainslog]

I agree with kimosubby, I bought stabilit express for bonding the wood to the inside of the hull on my wiesel.That is also vac formed plastic hull and the joints are just as strong as they were in 1980 when i built it. however, I think you will find that liquid poly cement isn`1t waterproof. dont quote me on that mind but I think one of my airfix boat kits started leaking on the hull joints when i put it into water. I would use epoxy resin on the plastic/plastic joints

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