Bristol Channel Pilot Cutter

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Possible next project

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi all, quite fancy this as my next project. Perhaps it's too ambitious as a first sailing model ? If possible, I'd like your views – pro's /con's etc….Thanks

[James Hill 5Participant @jameshill5]

Hi Dave,

I`ve no experience of building a sailing boat so can`t help you but just wanted to say that that is a very nice looking boat which I think would make an excellent model.

The colours suit it as well.

Experts on here will tell you whether it`s a good choice.

Regards, Jim.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Thanks Jim – it certainly appeals.

Just at the research stage now – plans, drawings etc There are other working boats on my list, but, this one is tops so far.

Regards,

Dave

[Dave HarrisonParticipant @daveharrison24862]

Hi Dave

One of my favourite sailing vessels, go for it ! I'm sure I have seen fibreglass hulls for Bristol Channel Pilot cutters if you didn't fancy going down the plank on frame route. ( although in my opinion it would be worth the extra effort to build the hull from scratch on such a model )

p.s I'm not an expert !

regards Dave.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Thanks for the reply Dave (all positive responses so far !).

Yes, Sarik list some GRP hulls for David Alderton's (and others) designs. I agree with you though, for maximum 'immersion' in the project, I should build the hull myself….

I have a stock of 3mm marine ply that could be used for frames, bulkheads etc. Not sure about the planking yet – may have to practice this on a mock-up first.

Regards,

Dave C

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Done properly, they are superb sailing boats, but they are not really beginner boats. A simpler yacht will give more painless experience on the learning curve.

A past member of my club had one. His habit of an evening was to take it for a walk the half mile length of the lake, buy a cup of brew at the kiosk down there, and let it walk him back. He only considered it a good session if he had water inside the deck boat. If I remember right, he had fitted an over-size rudder to give a bit more authority when tacking.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Words of caution ringing in my ears Malcolm !

One technical question so far – most of the existing designs seem to be around 46" hull length. This would be a tad long for my estate car, so, I was thinking of maybe 36" or so.

I could make the bowsprit 'retractable' for transport, which is quite a long spar on the pilot cutter…

Thoughts ?

Dave

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

There is a reason why scale sailing models tend to be large and that is because it is much easier to make them sail realistically. The smaller the boat, the less it weighs and this does affect the sailing characteristics. You may only be dropping the length by a certain amount but the hull volume and displacement decreases dramatically.

Remember that the wind is the same whether you have a full size boat or a model and you need something that will cope with an average breeze on a pond.

Others on here will give you a bit more chapter and verse.

Colin

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi.Dave, have a look on YouTube at Sail tails videos, Gary Webb has designed and built a semi-scale Pilot Cutter called Flyer, the hull is not true scale as it is hard chine, but it still looks good, it is designed as a model to sail and be sailed with separate control of the mainsail and three jibs.

I am waiting for the end of lockdown to be able to sail mine for the first time.

You can also look up his web site Bearospaceindustries for information on his boats.

If you would like to see some pictures let me know, I need to make an album for it.

Eddie.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Thanks all for the replies. I think I've found one that will fit my car (problem is Sarik wants to sell the hull and plan in an "all-in-one" package – I'm trying to prise them apart !).

Eddie : thanks for the references….I'll chase them up now.

Regards,

Dave

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Reducing the size of a sail model usually results in severely restricting sailing opportunities (wind forces scale the wrong way) and/or reducing performance expectations.

Both can be got back to an extent by fitting a weighted keel under the hull. See the square rigger article in his months MBM.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Just had a reply from Sarik and they will sell just the plan for the "Margueritte" pilot cutter. This size definitely fits my car.

However, with a bit of juggling diagonal spaces etc, I think I can carry a larger hull. Say, a 1/12 scale may be possible. Full-size of the photo above is 52 feet.

The Sarik 'plan' is more deck detail and side profile but could form the basis of a full design. Hence, more research required…

Looking at various videos, it does seem that the larger sailing boats are better able to cope when the wind gets up.

Will give another update soon.

Dave

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

Which ever you choose find one with drawings which include the sail plan/rig, Margueritte is 3/4" to the foot so will be around 40" long and will weigh around 30 lbs.

Why don't you consider a Thames Sailing Barge ? say Veronica, excellent 7 sheets of drawings and when your finished worth circa £400.00

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Wise words Ray – I thought you've been keeping your powder dry !

Yes, Thames barges, Cobles, Norfolk Wherries and more on the list. Sail plan is a must as are good constructional details….ballast requirements etc.

Several experts have also mentioned 'over-scale' rudders to assist with tacking and the stronger wind days. Just how much larger I'm not sure – could be a case of making two or three then, trial and error.

What are you up to ? Building ?

Regards,

Dave

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

Yes all long keel boats like going straight, and need extra rudder area, I had the Billings Colin Archer for a while which needed the motor on to tack cleanly , Well I'm just finishing Eventide & doing the deck furniture for MS Oldenburg, so busy with work also but working from home is great, keep us posted

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Just found out that Tom Cunliffe has written a book about pilot cutters.

There is also a Youtube video of him sailing in "Jolie Brise" a French-built pilot cutter now owned by Dauntsey's School in Wiltshire.

56 tons and no winches ! Just one anchor windlass and everything else is done with pulley blocks and manpower (sometimes girl power too).

The boat has a history of fast racing including the Fastnet. Must try and get a copy of his book.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Dave

Jolie Brise won the very first Fastnet Race and came back to do it another time later.

There is a great book on Jolie Brise by Robin Bryer ISBN 0-436-07181-9 a fascinating read with photos and plenty of sketches.

I have a hankering to build a Thames Barge from drawings Ray kindly sent me. I might treat it as a long term project to plod along while I do other things.

These cutters have very distinct hull lines and will be quite a challenge but no sharp changes of section at the bow or stern so you should be able to plank the whole hull without resorting to carving blocks to shape.

You have to remember those were the days when a sack of coal weighed 1 cwt.!!

Tim R

Edited By Tim Rowe on 12/02/2021 17:37:30

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

20 cwt = 1 ton, those were the days Tim ! I vaguely remember, from schooldays, "Rods, Poles and Perches" as well. I wonder if they were ever nautical terms…or, agricultural perhaps ?

I think I've found Tom Cunliffe's book on Amazon – seems to have v.good reviews. I'll look out for Robin Bryer's as well.

Got a feeling I may have to work up a design of sorts from drawings in books etc. I think this would be good fun – especially the research side. A bit of a risky approach, but, I may make a part-size card model first to see how the hull shapes up.

Regards,

Dave C

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Dave

There is a lines plan in Robin's book. You would have to scale it up and that would probably produce some errors that would have to be faired in.

For a model it would suffice to cut the frame stations out in card. Set them up at the correct spacing and cut back any high spots using a thin batten wrapped around the frames. You could then sort out any gross errors before cutting out the bulkheads and frames in ply.

I am talking about Jolie Brise though and not a Bristol Pilot Cutter.

Tim R

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Slowly working my way through Tom Cunliffe's excellent book "Pilot Cutters Under Sail". There are several lines drawings including the Jolie Brise.

There is also mention of a very fast Bristol Channel cutter "Kindly Light", commissioned and operated by an enterprising fellow from Barry, South Wales. This rumoured to be the fastest of its era…(just before WW1, and no drawings found as yet).

I have also found other lines drawings on-line. These seem to have variations on the classic 'wineglass' hull sections. Pro's and con's are alluded to but all feature deep 'dead drops' at the stern.

As Tom's book covers Northern Europe as well as Britain, there may well be other gems to discover. The research continues….

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Research has thrown up some line drawings of hulls. This one could be "Kindly Light" or, a near approximation.

Armed with a pair of proportional dividers, I could do with some advice on how to work towards a set of working plans. Sail, Rigging and deck details still under research…

Thanks,

Dave C

[Kev.WParticipant @kev-w]

Haven't seen anyone mention a model owned by one of our club members, not sure if it is still available, but someone may have a copy of plans they would share.

'Cariad', found this when I googled it … Cariad

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

Have you that drawing as a paper version ? if so what size is it ? When the copy shops open again you could get it enlarged, It rather depends on how big you want your model to be ??

Or the harder way is to enlarge your drawing by hand with a compass, flexi curve rule & pencil

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi Kev and Ray,

Kev: "Cariad" looks very close to what I'm looking for. I'll certainly put it on the short-list.

Ray: Sadly, I only have a small electronic drawing version at present. Attempts to enlarge it have lead to blurry outlines and fudged figures !

A rough plan at the moment is to make a 'half-size' hull in card /balsa. I think I'm aiming for a finished model size of around 40", so the mock-up would be approx. 20" hull length. If this turns out OK, I'll convert the card frames to wood (probably 3mm marine ply).

Photos to follow as soon as the mock-up is under way.

Cheers both

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