PS Columba

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

With my puffer slowly nearing completion, I am turning my thoughts to my next big project – one I have long had my eye on, but won’t get started on till the spring.  A mate and me are looking at building a 1:48 model of the classic Clyde steamer PS Columba of 1878.  She was the longest of the Clyde paddle steamers, so the model comes in at a whopping 6 foot 2 inches long!Long before we get started on the task I can see me coming to you very helpful people for lots advice!

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

This is I think an actual colour (as opposed to colourised) photo.  Amazingly, she ran until 1936. My thoughts are along the lines of the following. Make a sacrificial plug from whch to mould a fibre glass hull and then build up saloons and sponsons etc as I have done on my existing paddler Glen Rosa, which I built from near-scratch. Think I may have found options for people who could help re feathering paddles, but realise this is going to be a big model. Am  terefore tying to work out what sort of size / type of a motor I might need, and whether 24 volts would be necessary rather than 12. Also (in my head) presently trying to visualise how I would get her from the car (or, more likely, a van) into the pond.  Wise advice on any of these fronts much appreciated!

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

6 foot is a huge model.  I would try to get a real handle on just what a model this size would mean as regards handling and operating before committing yourself to a build.  Initial thoughts are not only would a large vehicle be needed but certainly two of you are going to be needed to handle the model in and out of the vehicle and then in and out of the water.  It could end up being a lot of work for a big white elephant as the model could be so difficult to handle that you invariably prefer to take something else to the pond.

Then other thoughts I had were regarding handling the model on the water.  We have discussed on here and earlier versions of the forum just how challenging manoeuvring a paddler can be as they tend to be on the long and slim side.  This particular vessel looks like it has taken this to quite an extreme.  I strongly suspect that it could end up being extremely difficult to steer, particularly as the paddle wheels actually look proportionally quite small for the vessel.  You might gain a little steering at speed from a rudder, if it is fitted, but at slow speed she looks like she would be very difficult to turn.

Just offering food for thought for now.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I rather agree with Richard, this would be a massive project and a huge amount of work. With a length to beam ratio of over 11:1 steering is going to be problematical at the very least!  You will need a big pond. When Waverley visits Portsmouth she berths bow in and needs a workboat pushing on the bow to enable her to turn down harbour as she cannot make the turn on her own within the harbour width.

I’m not sure why you would want to go through the moulding process as only one hull will result from all the extra work involved in making a plug, then a mould and then casting the hull. How do you propose to construct the plug? Would it not be easier and less effort to simply make a conventional plank on frame hull?

Colin

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks both of you for these salutory warnings, which it is good to have. I know someone with a working 1:48 model of the same vessel and am keeping in touch with him to model this vessel on his. In terms of scale, I agree that there would need to be a clear strategy about how to transport it and I would not embark on the project  without that in place. I suspect that borrowing a small van may be needed, even with a folding mast, but the ship is so narrow that it would fit in a large car with seats folded down (I will check that claim!). The model (like the original ship, apparently) was prone to being tender, and I would be thinking of making a false keel, like I have on my other paddler, as well introducing a slightly exagerrated depth to hull below waterline. I suppose the main thinking I had behind the moulded construction was to save weight, but you are persuading me that the bigger consideration here is the mess and complication of making a plug. I suppose I am just keen to end up with something light and watertight, but  a plank on frame hull, with fibreglass applied in and out would quite probably make more sense, the more I think of it. These are helpful words of warning, and I will come back to this group once something is clearer in my mind! Cheers

 

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

 

For plank on frame you would need a substantial plywood keel and frames but the planking could be lime/basswood which is only slightly heavier than balsa but much stronger. Given that a GRP hull of that size would need to be quite thick and have internal framing I think it would work out quite a bit heavier than a ply/basswood plank on frame hull with a lightweight glass cloth covering.

And definitely make provision for fitting an external keel. If you include the mounting points in the keel you can experiment with weight and depth as necessary.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

While I agree that transverse stability is something that requires addressing, particularly with a paddler as any heeling creates an imbalance in the thrust, my biggest concern would remain with manoeuvrability.  As Colin suggests I suspect the turning circle is going to be significant when going forward but the long slim hull combined with the proportionally small paddles is going to make steering at slow speeds very challenging.  A slight breeze against the side could even make it impossible to turn.  A concealed bow thruster might be worth considering.

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks for all this advice.  Having been helmsman on a paddle steamer, I can confirm what is said about handling at low speeds, but my other model paddler seems to manage (turning circle is three lengths). If it becomes difficult, I will consider things like bow thrusters. On portability, this will definitely fit in an estate car (narrow enough to poke between the two front seats.  With removable mast, it will also fit diagonally in a hatchback (my friend who has built same model confirms!).  I still need to make up my mind, however, between a fibreglass hull from a plug or a plank and frame hull covered in fibreglass.  Had not occurred to me the latter might be lighter. There are attractions to trying a foam plug covered in fibreglass (my friend’s model is based on this sort of construction).  If what I came up with was like the fibre glass hulls supplied by mountfleet models etc, it would be next to weightless, though I appreciate the point about building strength into something  this long. I have done plank and frame on a static model before, though it was a first and rough and ready attempt. Plenty to think about, but if I can make up my mind between these two types of construction, I am determined to give this a go. I will build a small prototype hull first though to convince myself that chosen method works.

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

One thing I need to consider is how many layers of fibre glass might be required,(3, with a week between each?)  and whether there are any recommended materials.  If going down the plug route, I am guessing we are talking about epoxy resin and fibre glass cloth (or mats?).  I realise the type of foam chosen is important too, when using epoxy.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Alastair,

You have obviously thought carefully about the various options.

With a model like this there are many factors to consider. With regard to hull construction this is a big model and whilst GRP is an obvious option, there are potential drawbacks. I have made a number of kit models using supplied GRP hulls and while the hull has been light, there have always been distortions to correct. When the hull is removed from the mould it is not dimensionally stable and  tends to distort. Commonly the topsides bend in and the bottom tends to arch. This can all be corrected with the application of weight, heat and introduction of internal framing to match the plan view of the upper deck. So you have to sort of wrestle it into shape. GRP is a a messy job whether you use polyester resin or the better but more expensive epoxy.

A plank on frame hull will not suffer these distortions but obviously requires quite a lot of work but PS Columba looks as if the planking on the long hull would be relatively easy to achieve. The stern might require some blockwork, shaping.

Obviously you need to get the shape of the hull right. If you use plank on frame then this is virtually automatic. Carving from foam needs external templates, not quite so easy.

Lots to think about then!

Colin

 

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

As you are still mulling over the options you might find this interesting reading:

https://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5905.0.html

You have to be signed in to see the pictures.  Quite a process but a lovely model.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Just spent a while re reading this, very enjoyable. Bryan introduced me to double sided tape and very kindly sent me a couple of reels which I am still using. It is ideal for attaching flat surfaced items to plasticard or wood and I have used in in most of my models since to attach doors and also pre printed windows from the computer on my 1:150 scale models.

Bryan passed away only recently but long before that macular degeneration in his eyesight put an end to his model making. A sad loss.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

Hi Colin, sad to hear about Bryan, I wasn’t aware he had passed away.  I once went up to visit him as I bought the General Havelock from him.  A beautiful model that one day I hope to see on the water again.  It has been gutted internally.  I knew his eyesight was going, which was why he stopped making models eventually.

His biggest challenge was that he smoked like a chimney, in fact his workshop room, was an all over yellow colour!  Lovely guy though.

I agree, many of my electronic components are held in place with double sided foam tape.

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

Alastair, re: large paddle-steamer models, the now out-of-print Marine Modelling International magazine featured a 1950mm long ‘Jeanie Deans’ in their October and November 1994 magazines. Plan MAR 2439 is still available from Cornwall Model Boats.

Perhaps a different paddler than you are planning but there may be some useful information on building a large model paddler.

Forum member of years past, Bob Abel built one, which I think he sold.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I assume you are aware of the Paddleducks website>

https://www.paddleducks.co.uk/smf/index.php?action=links;cat=3;sort=rating;sorto=ASC;start=10

Colin

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks for these useful links – will investigate!

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Hi Richard – I noticed some comment about the model boats mayhem forum being down – it is certainly not responding to efforts to join/ login at moment so cant see the pictures, but hopefully the text will be useful.

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

HI Colin – yes most of the comments in the link to paddleducks are about the very fine Columba model owned by Sandy Mercer. I am using this as the prototype (in my head) for what I may hopefully come to build.

 

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks Tony. Would be interestig to see that.  Still working out construction method.

[Alasdair Allan]

On Alasdair Allan Said:

Hi Richard – I noticed some comment about the model boats mayhem forum being down – it is certainly not responding to efforts to join/ login at moment so cant see the pictures, but hopefully the text will be useful.

Keep trying, I don’t think the owner keeps an eye on things as closely as he used to but I’m sure he’ll get back to you eventually.  The pictures are worth it.  If you don’t get anywhere let me know as I’m sure I still have the building pictures somewhere.

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks Richard

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Thanks to everyone who has offered info and views on this idea.  My pal Rob and I are now doing the research on this one, though will not really get started on the model till the spring.  Going to see the original shipyard model from 1878, plus taking advice from the owner of another 1/48 fibreglass model of the ship to build up a picture of where to start. Also  digging out old photos.  Fairly clear in my mind now what the aim is – a six foot (but very thin!) 1/48 model made from fibre glass cloth on plug construction. Showing the ship as she was in the 1880s-90s. This will be a major project but I will take photos of the build as I go and am happy eventually to give you an article for the magazine if we get there. May need to find a second hand estate car at some point, but think for the moment my hatchback will just about do! Would be genuinely appreciative of all info and advice from people who know the ways of fibreglass better than I do.

[John W EParticipant @johnwe]

sorry for joining your discussion, at a late stage, however here are a few thoughts on the subject:

I built HMS Exeter at 1:96 scale which comes out at approximately 71 inches in length; she is built plank on frame and covered with fibre glass tissue mat with 3 coatings of resin sanded down to give a nice smooth finish.   On top of this – there is a plasticard assimilated plating applied; which is superglued into place.   This gives a very strong and durable hull – it is reasonably light.   Materials used in the building of the hull were 6mm birch ply for the frames, 1/4 inch square obechi stringers and planked with 6mm wide x 1.5 mm thick obechi planks.  The internal of the hull was given 3 coats of polyester resin (with no matting applied – as this was just to seal all of the planking).  Handling this hull I was able to fit it into my S80 Volvo boot version.

As for paddlers – I built the Forceful paddle tug and it is fairly easily manoeuvrable around the lake, due to the fact that the paddles are independently controlled which may be of an advantage to you and your model.   Although in real life they are not independently controlled.  The paddles were made from brass sheet 0,5 thick, I cut them out with a jewellers saw, but, they are non-feathering.

Here are a couple of pictures to give you some ideas.

John

 

 

[Alasdair AllanParticipant @alasdairallan37423]

Looks brilliant John! Formidable looking model and a lovely wooden hull. I am going to see if I can miss out the plank on frame stage and just produce a fibreglass hull as have seen others do. will keep you posted!

[Author]

Posts