New old new modeller needs help

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New old new modeller needs help

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15 June 2019 at 00:16 #82624
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
Hi all

Returning to the model boat world after a 30 odd year hiatus. Maybe it was something to do with marriage and kids, I dunno but…

I've recently re-acquired a boat – well just a hull really – that I built about 35 years ago and I'd like to get it going again.It's been sitting on a shelf in my garage for about 5 years taunting me and I'd like to do something with it.

It started life as a cabin cruiser, then it was converted to an ASR boat , then it sank and then it sort of died a death for many years.

This is it, or what's left of it

It's 34" long and 9 and a bit " wide. twin props, twin rudders and as I recall, it worked very well…. until it sank.

I'd very much like to resurrect it in its ASR mode but I need help with what sort of motors, speed controllers, batteries, etc. In fact more or less everything electrical that would be needed to get it doing what it was built to do.

I am completely out of touch with modern developments and as I said, I built this boat about 35 years ago and a lot has happened since then, hence I've forgotten all I knew about this sort of thing.

I've acquired a nice 4 channel r/c set up for it but that's it so far.

I need help.

Please.

Edited By Andrew Fallows on 15/06/2019 00:16:45
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15 June 2019 at 00:16 #2841
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
15 June 2019 at 09:51 #82626
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
Hi Andrew, welcome back to boating. The technical stuff may have moved on but all the underlying principals are just the same.

I recommend you have a look at some of the feature articles on this site to help refresh you on where technology is now. Look for the features tab, it opens some categories, then look in hints tips and technical. I recommend reading Dave's article on electrics, and the article on brushless motors.

For that hull I would certainly choose a modern brush less motor with either NiMH or lipo batteries.

When you get around to asking about specific motors etc, listen to advice given about installations in models similar to yours, there is a lot of very high speed info which is interesting but not always relevent to quick scale models.

One personal observation, not many people quote the weight of their models when recommending an installation, I find that it can make a huge difference in the best choice.

Chas
16 June 2019 at 08:51 #82635
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
Thanks for the reply Chas. I think I'm going to need all the help I can get with this, it seems like completely new territory to me. I've managed to trace the original kit the boat was built from and it was an Aerokits Sea Commander but any resemblance to that kit is now distant history.

I've had a read through the article you recommended, quite interesting it was too but it left me feeling more clueless that I already was. All the terminology is alien to me, I'm more used to model railways really – I understand them!

From what I can gather, the general one size fits all motor would be the 540. Would this be correct? If so I'd need two of them so any ideas as to what sort of battery/batteries I'd need?

Regarding your last paragraph. As it stands at the moment, the bare hull weighs just under 2 kilos. I'd guess that once everything is built/fitted I could probably double that. I don't intend for the boat to be an out and out racer but neither do I want it to be a staid plodder. A mix of both would be nice.

Any recommendations and advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
16 June 2019 at 11:10 #82636
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
Hi Andrew, there must be more posts on here about 540 motors than any other type. Strictly speaking, the 540 is just the physical size, there are many, probably over 100 permutations of motor in this can size. For reference, most model boaters would use a 540 from a company called MFA, or an electrically identical motor from another trusted supplier.

Now for my personal view, 2 motors in one hull won't make it go much faster than 1 motor, but they will use twice as much power ( amps) there are other benefits, like acceleration and it looks better too. If you wish to go ahead with two, rather than convert the hull to 1 drive ( not difficult) be prepared to double the cost of batteries and speed controller etc. I would closely examine the condition of the shafts and bearings before doing anything. If they are anything but perfect, ditch them because the problems will come back to bite you later, probably after you've finished repainting.

I also still suggest you keep reading and asking about brushless motors, they really are very much better than ordinary ones for a quick boat and don't have to cost much either. My single brushless in a 40 inch asrl cost about 18 quid and the ESC around 25. I run for 30 mins plus on 3300 NiMH pack at at mixed speeds, including well over scale speed for the fun.

Ask away with whatever confuses you, there are some people much better than me to help with any electrical confusion you have.

Chas
16 June 2019 at 22:54 #82649
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
As Charles says, keep reading and things will become clearer. It's not rocket science, just unfamiliar at first and lots of info online outside this site. Once you get a grasp of the subject then things become progressively easier. A little knowledge also makes it a lot easier to ask specific questions.

Whilst motor and speed control options have become more complex over the years the radio side is now much simpler with reasonably priced 2.4Ghz sets and no need to worry about crystals etc.

As far as batteries are concerned NiMH packs are conventional; and only need cheap chargers. Lightweight LiPo batteries will give more performance but need special chargers and more expensive speed controllers.

Colin
17 June 2019 at 08:09 #82650
Ray Wood 3
Participant
@raywood3
Hi Andrew,

I suppose I should ask why it sank all those years ago ? Did the shafts and rudder tubes leak badly ? If so replace them with new, the rudders are unbalanced and will be hard work for the servo. The Sea Commander will plane on a single 600 size brushed motors on 9.6volts, also I'd cut the deck opening bigger for some access to put your new gear in 😀

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 17/06/2019 08:10:00
17 June 2019 at 08:30 #82651
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
If I remember rightly from all those years ago, I think I'd done some work on the boat and I'd taken the prop shafts out for some reason then like a moron I forgot to re-grease them when I reassembled them. They acted just like Archimedes screws and sucked water into the hull. Maybe 'sank' is a bit of an exaggeration. More like it achieved 'Neutral Buoyancy', almost submarine mode, and managed to ruin all the electrics. Maybe that's why it was put on a shelf and forgotten about.

Question: If I was to go with the single motor option, would it be an easy enough job to source some kind of gearbox assembly to drive 2 props in opposite directions (clockwise/counter clockwise)? It's not a question of cost so much as simplicity and 1 motor, 1 controller, 1 battery seems simple enough for me
17 June 2019 at 08:50 #82652
Ray Wood 3
Participant
@raywood3
Hi Andrew,

The single motor driving 2 props, makes life complicated easier to have 2 brushed (cheaper) motors which would run on 1 speed controller. The modern shafts/tubes don't need greasing , so I would take out the existing twin arrangement and go with single screw/shaft/coupling/rudder, more cost effective, will take some cutting & carving and infilling holes etc

Looks like your rudder servo was in the bow with snakes, easier to have them at the stern with pushrods ?

Regards Ray
17 June 2019 at 08:58 #82653
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Andrew. As you have two shafts fitted, it would make sense to keep the boat as is and fit two new motors and couplings. Left and right hand brass props can be obtained easily.

for occasional use brushed motors will be fine and if of a not too powerful sort can be run on one esc, a practice frowned upon by many, but valid nevertheless. 540 motors and 600 types are interchangeable as far as mounting holes go, a useful feature when experimenting. As a person with a box full of “spare” motors I would bung a couple of lower power MFA 540/1 motors in and try the hull out using some two blade 35mm plastic props to see what’s what. These motors will run on 6 to 12v happily and are quite feisty at the higher voltages. Do you have any clubs or wotnot you could go to? Certainly a trip to Bushy park where we boat would give you a good idea of what to do..seeing boats in action and so on.

brushless motors will need one esc per motor.

Please bear in mind there is no right way to equip your boat, it is all about budget, use, and personal belief/preference.

Ashley Usual disclaimer!

Edited By ashley needham on 17/06/2019 08:59:54
17 June 2019 at 09:15 #82654
Ray Wood 3
Participant
@raywood3
Hi Andrew

If you stick with the old shafts, don't forget to fit a bilge pump 😃

Regards Ray (humourous dept)
17 June 2019 at 16:49 #82656
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
I have to a agree that a gearbox whilst possible is very impractical. It would be noisy, difficult to find, and expensive.

Your comments about enough water coming up the shafts makes me very suspicious about their quality, even ungreased shafts shouldn't let that much water in.

You will find proponents on here for different motors/ batteries/ESC,s. Each of us has our favourites, judge for yourself which will give the best performance and run time.

If you decide to remove the old tubes, let us know, again there are different approaches. I took one out of an old model about 9 months ago, it was held into the keel with araldite. It took me about 5 mins to get out with no damage to the model except for the hole it left.

Chas
17 June 2019 at 17:58 #82657
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
If some of the threaded section is within the prop end of the tube then it will certainly be inclined to drive water into the boat depending in which direction the prop is turning.

Colin
20 June 2019 at 08:59 #82692
Trevor Drabble 1
Participant
@trevordrabble1
Andrew ,

For your information , Cornwall Model Boats sell an Aeronaut open framed gearbox , part number 7030/30 for the princely sum of £5.47 . It has a single input shaft with two output shafts , but is out of stock at mo , so maybe worth a call to CMB ?

Regarding a bilge pump , on the grounds of simplicity and reliabilty , where I have a high reving motor l prefer to install a rearwards facing water scoop positioned centrally and approximately 3mm in front of the prop, and 3mm in from the tip of the prop . Connect a length of plastic tube to top of scoop and loop it high enough to be above the water line , with the open end terminated at low level in the bilges . The result is that the action of the prop then sucks up and discharges any water automatically . Such an arrangement is obviously useless in a slow or manoeuvring type of boat .

Hope this all helps .

Trevor.
20 June 2019 at 12:20 #82693
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
Yes, I'm aware of that gearbox, but I cant imagine that it would cope with the power needed to make a sea commander hull go properly. I think it's aimed at ship models, especially with a 3 to one ratio. Then there's the problem of getting the centres to align properly with the already installed shafts. Also it would shriek like a banshee with a high revving motor. I've got the tee-shirt on that one, another failed experiment.

Chas.

Edited By Charles Oates on 20/06/2019 12:31:23
20 June 2019 at 19:31 #82694
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
I've been searching around in the garage and I found a box of forgotten bits and pieces. In amongst it all was the a big bundle of wires and stuff that consisted of original radio receiver, servos and other electrical bits and bobs that haven't seen the light of day for 30-odd years.

While I'm not expecting any of it to work after so long, it got me thinking. Everything I did back then was simple. The couplers for the prop shafts were sections of silicon spark plug leads glued onto the shafts and the original speed controller was a strange Tamiya offering that fitted directly on top of a servo. I remember my dad tried to get me interested in electronics by buying me a Maplin R/C speed controller kit but I didn't get interested so he built it for me and it worked. That is in the box too. Unfortunately the motors are lost to the mists of time but everything else is there. Simple but it all worked.

Surely I don't need to spend megabucks to get it running again, 2 motors, some batteries and some kind of speed controller should be all I need. right?
20 June 2019 at 19:59 #82695
Ray Wood 3
Participant
@raywood3
Hi Andrew,

Not sure what you consider mega bucks ? I reckon a single motor,coupling,stern tube,prop,speed controller & battery will cost £80 approx

The painful truth is the model will only worth half of the money spent on it ! But the good news is the Sea Commander kit is £175 now so your quids in 😀

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 20/06/2019 20:06:55
28 June 2019 at 00:22 #82737
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
OK .I've read and partially understood most of the responses I've had here and as a result I've decided not to entertain the idea of a gearbox. Instead, I've bagged myself a couple of these for a decent price:

As far as I can remember, these are the same as the ones I originally had all those years ago and I was happy with them back then.

Which leads me to my next question – well, two questions really. Can I run both of these motors from one of these new fangled speed controller thingies? and if so which one would people recommend?

and

What kind of battery pack (packs) would I need?

Apologies once again for coming across like a complete numpty but like I said, the last time I did boats was 35 years ago and there's been a lot of water under the bridge since then. Ask me something about N gauge railways and I can bore you to death all day long…. but each to their own eh?

The boat is coming along nicely btw. Maybe if I get some time and some good light I'll do some progress photos tomorrow

PS

My wife has just reminded me that all those years ago the Sea Commander kit cost me the tidy sum of £25. She remembers that because it was almost as much as I paid for her engagement ring.

You see, that's how it should be – get your priorities right in the first place

Edited By Andrew Fallows on 28/06/2019 00:27:43

Edited By Andrew Fallows on 28/06/2019 00:29:59
28 June 2019 at 13:23 #82746
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
So. Decent light and some spare time so pics as promised. I've still got loads to do but it's coming along nicely.
2 July 2019 at 04:37 #82811
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
Charles Oates:

I didn't realise before but we're practically neighbours. I have a house in Torrevieja, by the red lake. It would be nice to walk down to the park of nations some sunday for a look see what's going on.
2 July 2019 at 08:06 #82812
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
Hi Andrew, you will be very welcome. Our next sailing session is 14 of July starting at around 10.30. The heat at the moment means most of us have had enough by midday. We sail at the top of the lake on the right hand side ( looking down the lake).

Chas
2 July 2019 at 09:21 #82814
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
That's a shame, the 14th. I'm not out again until the 17th.

Ah well, there's always next time. September maybe, I'll be there from the 6th onwards.

Andy
2 July 2019 at 10:43 #82817
Charles Oates
Participant
@charlesoates31738
OK Andrew, September the 8th should suit you, same times and location. We're also organising our night sailing and picnic in September, but no date for a while. Some of our club are in hospital and we're waiting for news before setting a date.

Chas
5 July 2019 at 14:36 #82853
Andy F
Participant
@andyf73386
That sounds like it could be a date, assuming the financial controller doesn't want to go to the garden centre again…

In the meantime, I'm still waiting for my motors to arrive so I've been playing.

It's not meant to be an exact replica of any particular boat, just going wherever my mind takes me.
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