Ecranoplan, different boat or what.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I saw on the telly James Mays awesome machines or something, title not important, and he had a go on an Ecranoplan. This is , for those not in the know, a sort of flying boat with very small stubby wings that flies in "ground effect". It floats just above the water on a cushion of air not unlike a hovercraft, and very similar to a hydroplane.

The question is, would this make an interesting subject for something a bit different or not, or is it  real aeroplane and as such to be discarded without a second thought. . As someone who has made a non flying flying boat I saw straight away a project to add to the list,…….

Ashley

[Penny LeeParticipant @pennylee76979]

Hi Ashley,

An aquaintance at a neighbouring model boat club related a tale of a (flying boat semi-kit or R.T.F.?)

 He mentioned a low success rate down to the lack of working flaps.

Lee

[Len OchiltreeParticipant @lenochiltree67043]

Hi Ashley,

I think the problem would be the lack of scale water, but hey you seem able to come up with answers to most problems.

I think there already is on the market a model boat that flies.

Len.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Len, there certainly is, I think it amounts to an air prop driven hydroplane….but flying on the pond is a bit dangerous I recon. The ecranoplan on the May show had two props at the front either side of the nose, and as he revved it so the stubby wings were already lifting. I dont think on that basis that scale water would be a hinderance. I feel a prototype coming on…..Have a surf for the "Caspian sea monster", the big russian ecranoplan. That would make an absolutely MONSTER vehicle to get on the pond, Eight ducted fan motors at the front….ooo er, it makes me go all faint.

O.K then, how about an alternative suggestion for something different, a two man chariot…or human torpedoe….two action men on top.. easy! or has been done before?

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Ashley

The problem that the Russians had with the "Sea Monster" was changing aerodynamics as lift created by the ground effect was constantly changing. I am not sure that it would be possible to safely control the flight of a scale model of such a beast without running the risk of it becoming a submarine….

Here is a question for you….is this machine a boat or a plane???

And if it is a plane could a modeller use 35meg to control it? 

Paul 

[Len OchiltreeParticipant @lenochiltree67043]

Hi Paul,

How are you young man?.

A float plane model uses 35meg I would asume.

Ashley,

The small Ecranoplan used 2 x motors tilted at 45deg which looks a bit simpler to model, I watched the repeat of the programme last night.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Be interesting to see what sort of lift you would get on a model with the telly program setup. I should imagine even a simple sled or air-boat type hull would lift a bit with a couple or props blowing air under it. It might not lift as much as might be required for "flying" but it might look convincing on the water. i think modelling the Sea Monster might be a bit tricky as there is a lot of weight forward and not much hull. Might be a case there to cheat and make it a sort of hydroplane, if the motors at the front were mere tubes it wouldnt them weigh much.   Ashley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Len

Thanks for the question, health wise I am doing ok at the moment having reached that point of happy balance where the meds and the illnesses cancel each other out. Model wise I am engrossed in finding out about and building an obscure TID tug and I am also still researching and drawing up a scale M1 which should keep me busy over the winter months.

Hi Ashley

I assume that in theory any model with the right shape of hull could be used to achieve the illusion of "Ground Effect" by simply compressing air beneath the hull and thus creating a zone of positive lift. Len and I discussed this when talking about his recent scrap boat contest.

I do like your ideas on modelling the Sea Monster and, if you will pardon the pun, I think that the idea might just fly so are you going to build it.

Paul

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I will certainly add it to the list . trouble with these odd sorts of models is they require so much more thought and forward planning than that of your normal boat and I could see some serious balance and weight distribution issues with a Sea Monster, let alone problems with propulsion and getting it to look right when in motion. Yes, I am up for it,  love a challenge and its just so different. Where on earth do you get a drawing for a Sea Monster from though??    Ashley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

The-Blueprints.com, thats where ! they have a vast range of mostly 3-view drawings of various quality and guess what?? A caspian Sea Monster is one of them.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Ashley

You almost have everything that you need to build the model…you have an idea….you have some plans….you have some materials………….now all you need is someone to build it!!!!  

Perhaps this could be one of your winter projects along with changing the clockwork motor in the bond bug..

Cheers

Paul

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I will ignore the clockwork motor bit..you scoundrel   

A sea monster was made with a large turboprop at the rear on the tail fin, as well as the version with the turbojets at the front looking at that blueprint site…..spoilt for choice!   Trouble is  I can see this sort of thing being a bit too fast for our pond in order to look convincing.  

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I have it sussed out. The prop-at-the-rear one is the one to go for, I could put a reasonably powerful motor/prop combo on the tail for a bit of a shove. ALSO  looking closely at the pictures you can see there were two jets in the nose as well.. A cunning person could put a ducted fan unit in the front of the `plane (in the cockpit, as it were) and have the "exhausts" venting either side as per, but blowing under the stubby wings, assisting lift, or perhaps just lessening drag. About 36" overall by 18 inches wingspan seems a good size…. Ashley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

this will do nicely…….

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Ashley

This could be a "Shorty" type build.

Paul

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Paul.

I think it may, sorry, WILL  be. Basically it is just a thin PT boat with no superstructure, the wings are very short and will weigh next to nothing, the fin likewise, The tail mounted motor and prop assembly will weigh less that the normal shaft/coupling/motor combination. As long as the wings were placed so that in the stopped state they were JUST clear of the water I shouldnt need the fan unit in the nose, no reason why it shouldnt go very nicely. I think I might pop a temporary motor/prop assembly on my HMS Midge to get some data on air driven missile boats!   

  Ashley

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

Ashley,

Discovery Home and Leisure ran a series called ‘Model Mania’, featuring Kevin Duala and Mike Mayhew (of Waverley Models). One of the introductions short clips is a model Ecranoplan. Coloured yellow and moving very quickly across the screen. Looked an excellent model. I can’t remember if this was featured in the series. I have got some episodes recorded, and it doesn’t appear on these (other than the intro clip).

It can be done. Good Luck, Tony. 

[GrumpyParticipant @grumpy]

Hi Ashley,

Over the last couple of months I have not been checking the forum regularly so I have only just seen this thread. 

There were two articles on this subject in Marine Modelling.  The author was Graham Taylor and they appeared in the June 1995 and March 2002 issues.  He has obviously done a lot of research into this subject and has produced several working models.  

Regards

Grumpy 

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Grumps. Thanks for that I must check them out. I am after making a standoff scale type ekranoplan as per the above picture. the trick to get it working is to have some air blown under the wings to get the initial separation. Whereas I could do this it would be a fiddle and possibly be beyond my build timescale (fancy name for my limited time available for daddy type things as opposed to small boy and household duty type things). I think that given sufficient power at the back end with a brushless motor etc etc a scale model would work but i suspect that the MM boats were designed as model ekranoplans first off,,,, I may be wrong of course.  Ashley

[Len OchiltreeParticipant @lenochiltree67043]

Hi Ashley,

While looking on You Tube at Bens Skimmer, I noticed a lot of interest in Okranoplans,not being able to find my way around You Tube very well I did like " Wing In Surface Effect Ship ".

 Regards,

Len

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Len. I think "Ekranoplan" gets you lots ofvids on you-tube. There are a number of hybrid boat/planes out there with engines all over the place, and some of them perform like you wouldnt believe. The problem is building something scale-like whi;st getting the performance. I dont want mine to fly properly, just look "appropriate" on the pondDid you know Maplins are selling thgier 6v 4.5 Ahr SLA batteries at on;ly £3.99 up to xmas????     Ashley

[Len OchiltreeParticipant @lenochiltree67043]

Hi Ashley,

Yes you had mentioned Sla,s.

What measurements ( in inches please ).

 Len.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Len.   100mm x 70mm x45 mm    a jolly handy size.

oops, sorry    4" x 2 3/4" x 1 7/8"      Ashley  

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Len….or did you mean the boat ????  

[Mike DavidsonParticipant @mikedavidson22772]

Hi chaps I’ve just been reading your threads on the subject of EKranoplan and trying to emulate it in a model. The whole idea is fascinating, and whilst reading your words I suddenly thought that a tunnel hull racing boat does just that with the lift obtained from the air beneath taking some of the boat’s weight off the catamaran hullsso the thing cuts down on drag by reducing the amount of contact with the water, you could take a model tunnel hull that already works, and add a pair of stub wings outboard to provide a bit more lift. putting that bit down has made me think about it and ponder the possible problems, and immediately I spy a snaggette in the balancing of lift on each side  If your port stub gives you more lift than your starboard one, the boat will do a pretty little pirouette and  do a passable imitation of a submarine, so each of the stubs must be an exact mirror image of the other.

                     There are some brilliant projects being mooted at the moment, and I would dearly love to be involved in one. I think it was MMI that published a bit about trying to exceed 200Miles per hour with a fast electric model boat. What about that ? How would you measure that, ? it could only be done electronically

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