Duke of Northumberland

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Quite agree Neil, you have to do the best you can with the information you can get and that is not always definitive. The important thing is that you can capture the essence of the original to produce the best possible reproduction of what the vessel looked like. And that is in itself a valuable historical resource. Very much a worthwhile modelling project.

Colin

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

THANKS GUYS……….yes, very little has been preserved of these vessels. And the only vessel left is the wreck of the Duke of Northumberland that Bob posted lying in the mud and concrete overflow of a factory on the river bank at Runcorn. The others went to Chile and somewhere else overseas and lost forever..just written to the science museum asking for any help in taking photos of the model they have in there……………….but there are very few detailed plans available at all. The pumps, Ashley will operate both forward and reverse motion, one pump for each movement, but there again, contemporary plans of the Duke say that one side in each motion can be cut off and as such the boat could be spun on her axis, theoretically……..but there are few tails of their exploits available to say that they ever did this. I ALSO was given a set of very old dated blue prints dating to 1885 of the Duke showing side thrusters to give sideways movement away and towards the casualty, but these thrusters were never implemented and fitted………..sadly these were stolen from me (given to me by my granddad at the age of 11 as he had, as a young apprentice worked on the patterns of the pumping system for the Duke way back in the late 1880's) when I was on holiday from the school I taught at………..so even there, no evidence again……….but I will get to some sort of finish eventually. however I must say, it is going together far more easily and faster than any other lifeboat I have made so far………..so onwards and upwards. lol.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Posted by Colin Bishop on 14/11/2017 22:02:02:

Quite agree Neil, you have to do the best you can with the information you can get and that is not always definitive. The important thing is that you can capture the essence of the original to produce the best possible reproduction of what the vessel looked like. And that is in itself a valuable historical resource. Very much a worthwhile modelling project.

Colin

quite true Colin……..we do our best and work with what we have got.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I know there is a step by step guide on posing photos on the thread…………..but can someone please point my in that direction as I can't find it, lol.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

You should have gone to SpecSavers, Neil

Look here……

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

EUREKA!!!………..THANKS BOB, for the lead………

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

this is the model of the hydraulic steam lifeboat City of Glasgow in the science museum, London, with the ahead motion jet outlets at the stern under the counter instead of abeam the boat as on the Duke of Northumberland and the Queen. it also has the fore whale back more pronounced than the Queen, and so have decided to build her as this boat, but with the twin funnel version that was found to get up steam more quickly.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

but, can anyone find the most glaring anomaly of the science museum's model………it stands out a mile, baring in mind the nature of these 25 – 40 ton boats when loaded. A mars bar to the first correct answer. Just shows that even museum quality models are there to look shiny and beautiful, but not always accurate.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Neil

Congrats on sorting out the photo posting problem

Not spotted the glaring error yet, but where is the coal stored?

Is there a below decks area? And how big would the crew look in proportion?

Bob

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

bob………..these metal boats weighed 25 – 40 tons when coaled up, and were constantly kept in steam for readiness 24/7 so were kept afloat all the time at moorings…….the Duke of Northumberland being stationed at New Brighton afloat……..there's the clue to the anomaly . the coal was in side bunkers both sides of the boat [ you can see the bunker lids midships on deck, and they carried at least 1 fireman and two trimmers plus engineer, and then crew above deck………..so I would imagine 4 topside as well.

in the earlier photo there are 2 x 1;12 scale crewmen stood in the well deck aft so you can see the scale of the boat.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Neil

I notice that the model has only one chimney

But that can't be the error, surely? I

The rudder wheel looks a bit small too?

Bob

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

I was wondering about the presence of both the rope handrails at the sides and the grab-ropes hanging from the stanchions. It'd be a bit difficult hauling someone on board, surely?
DM

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 16/11/2017 12:31:06

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

The pumps, Ashley will operate both forward and reverse motion, one pump for each movement, but there again, contemporary plans of the Duke say that one side in each motion can be cut off and as such the boat could be spun on her axis, theoretically……..

Neil
If the pumps really do work in both directions {i.e. by spinning the motors in either forward or reverse} then by fitting one pump to each side of the model and having it vent both forwards and backwards you should be able to use a simple rudder/motor mixer on the ESCs for the pump motors. This should gave proportional steering while going in either direction.

Dave M

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

NO GUYS…………you are looking at the model with far too much depth in your thoughts.

as I said, these boats weighed 25 – 40 tons loaded and needed to be kept in steam, afloat…………in all weathers………..but this model in the museum looks beautiful in her white gloss under boot topping paint. But she would have had green lead antifouling on her just as this contemporary afloat boat was painted. she was an afloat boat [ top one of the trio ] Something as simple as that shows that accuracy is forsaken sometimes for "beauty" in a museum piece.

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 13:45:02

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 13:52:15

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

this boat, the William and Laura was the first motor lifeboat in Ireland, stationed at Donaghadee, just after the turn of the 20th century.and was an afloat boat, with anti fouling in green lead, before red lead became more normal.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

 

Posted by Dave Milbourn on 16/11/2017 13:41:12:

The pumps, Ashley will operate both forward and reverse motion, one pump for each movement, but there again, contemporary plans of the Duke say that one side in each motion can be cut off and as such the boat could be spun on her axis, theoretically……..

Neil
If the pumps really do work in both directions {i.e. by spinning the motors in either forward or reverse} then by fitting one pump to each side of the model and having it vent both forwards and backwards you should be able to use a simple rudder/motor mixer on the ESCs for the pump motors. This should gave proportional steering while going in either direction.

Dave M

 

​hi dave, just read my post to Ashley……………I think I gave the wrong impression…….the pumps won't go for or reverse……….each pump feeds one set of jets/nozzles, ……….one set of nozzles facing backwards to give thrust to move the boat forwards, and the other set facing foreward to give thrust to send the boat backwards…..sorry for the confusion.       The impellor in the pump is scooped in one direction, self priming and literally sucks the water in from under the hull and forces it out through the top brass union to the jets, and as I believe from the designer is just a suck and blow pump, like an old "lift and force" pump that I learned about in basic junior school science………as such it is none reversible……….but would have been blowing it back out the hull bottom had it been.

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 14:03:06

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Neil

After all the research I assumed that the Duke of Northumberland used a scaled down version of the propulsion used in HMS. Waterwitch and would have thought that the impeller casing would have been visible below the bilge keel level.

I still can not understand how this type of propulsion could be relied upon in choppy water as the impeller could theoretically be sucking air for a good 35% of the time.

Paul

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Ah. Shame, is that.

DM

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

It is that Dave, and yes………I think it was similar in design Paul, but as the whole system was self priming with just open scoops into the keel of the boat. at keelson level. the impellors were situated inside the hull and drawing the water in through those keel scoops. simple but effective.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I've just been looking at cut off valves for water pipes…………..has anyone come across these two manifolds for hose pipes and if so how stiff are those taps.

the reason of asking is whether a servo would be able to shift the tap…………..this would be a dream come true if they could.

saw them on Amazon.

neil………………….IF SO, I COULD MAKE DO WITH JUST ONE PUMP.

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 17:01:56

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Forget it, H-P. They are VERY stiff to turn. Your time might be better directed towards 12v solenoid valves or a couple of these gizmos **LINK**

DM

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 16/11/2017 17:59:24

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Waterwitch had her outlets mounted on the side of the vessel in sponsons just below the waterline with the thrust directed either forward or astern.

It's not entirely clear where the outlets were on the lifeboat.

Colin

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

 

someone on the US forum also suggested solenoid valves as well…………..but haven't a clue what they are…………….will have to google them………….and as usual mate……………your diagram has me totally baffled.                                                                                                                                                                                             the outlets differed on all three boats that were jet driven,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Colin…..the Duke had them on the side, midships, for both for and aft propulsion with the forward propulsion ones under water. And the aft propulsion parallel to the water. the Queen was the same as the Duke but with the jet nozzles angled slightly downwards, and the City of Glasgow had the fore propulsion units  sited at the aft of the boat behind the bilge area where the hull becomes  more V in configuration and the aft propulsion nozzles were the same configuration as the Queen.                                                                                                                             and by fore and aft…..I mean the direction that they push the boat, not the position of the jet nozzles……………all very confusing, lol.

 

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 20:31:49

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 20:32:26

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 16/11/2017 20:34:56

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

hey, Dave…………..just had a look at those valves……………they look just the job for what I want……..will have a chat with you about that set up………….and understand your diagram now that I've looked at the valves…..didn't know these things existed. cheers

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I presume I could use one of those manifolds with all taps open and put a solenoid valve at the outlet of each branch…………..then I would have the boat under total control…………..well that's the theory lol………….still got to master the voiths on the ferry, lol.

[Author]

Posts