Gun Carraigewheels

Gun Carraigewheels

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  • #14219
    JC Uknz 1
    Participant
      @jcuknz1

      I’m painting the gun carraiges of my 1700’s cutter and wonder if the wheels are solid wood or metal or else perhaps metal tires on wooden centres. They are 3 pounders, scaled up twice size from Jokita’s Sherbourne when I found her advertised length included the bowsprit rather than just hull  and too small I felt to venture onto the briney as a working model 

      #14228
      Paul T
      Participant
        @pault84577

        Hi JC

        I have always understood that the wheels on ship board cannon were made from timber

        Paul

        #14238
        JC Uknz 1
        Participant
          @jcuknz1

          Thank you Paul. I’ve painted them with my ‘wood’ colour so I don’t need to add ‘metal’ or ‘black’

          White metal from Blue Jacket..

          #14276
          ashley needham
          Participant
            @ashleyneedham69188

            Jc.  dude.  I am a novice in the "classic" sailing boat department, but it is my understanding that virtually all the wood on most of these ships was painted with something or other, paint or tar etc-barring the deck perhaps- and I`m sure I have read that (for instance) the guns on the Victory were painted in yellow ochre (or whatever the pale colour on the ship was), wheels and all   ( they are called "trucks" I believe?)   Ashley 

             just thought I would throw that nugget of info in. Airfix instructions are the best and could do with being copied by these manufacturers, they always show exactly what colours all the bits are!  

            #14277
            JC Uknz 1
            Participant
              @jcuknz1

              You could have a point for me there .. that while I am scratchbuilding at twice the scale of the silly little kit I wasted my money on perhaps the answer is in the paperwork which came with the kit.  Mind you now that the model is largely built, hope to have her in the water in the next day or so I am wondering where I will keep her in my smallish cottage, along with all the other craft.  I did trake one to the recycling yard last year, and earlier abandoned one annonymously at my modelling club, it disappeared within a week and I’m waiting to see if somebody brings her to the pond on day.  

              I think you will find that carraige and truck are interchangable depending on wether you went to Cambridge or Oxford Else like with the Atlantic between people they call things points and switches.

              #14303
              ashley needham
              Participant
                @ashleyneedham69188

                JC. The little WHEELS on the carriages were called TRUCKS  according to my sources……   Ashley

                #14334
                Bob Abell 2
                Participant
                  @bobabell2

                  http://www.modelboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/images/member_albums/2459/Thumbs/12_pdr_long.jpg

                  This is an HMS Victory 12 pounder cannon and they look like wooden wheelsBob Abell

                  #14349
                  ashley needham
                  Participant
                    @ashleyneedham69188

                    Yes, the trucks do seem to be wood colour, they must have run out of paint…………

                    #14367
                    Bob Abell 2
                    Participant
                      @bobabell2

                      http://www.modelboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/images/member_albums/2459/Thumbs/CANNON_250.jpg

                      For some reason the earlier cannon picture went AWOLThis is a better replacement anyway!Robert the Third

                      #14484
                      Ian_G Hughes
                      Participant
                        @ian_ghughes13480

                        I too favour ‘truck’. It is also to be found in the wheel arrangement of a steam locomotive, e.g. the "Flying Scotsman" has a Pacific wheel arrangement , 4-6-2 the latter 2 representing a 2 wheel bogie under the footplate. This is known as a ‘pony truck’

                         Turning to colours of Nelson era vessels, the decks were not painted but ‘holystoned’. As late as the 50’s when I was a Deck Apprentice wooden decks were holystoned by a holystone,  apparently a form of sandstone  I also believe that hull interiors on gun decks were painted red so that all the blood and gore would be less noticeable…fat chance.

                        Cheers

                        yewmount

                        #14487
                        ashley needham
                        Participant
                          @ashleyneedham69188

                          Ian. I am not sure that the red business is not an urban legend, currently the Victory gundeck walls and deckheads are painted white. HOWEVER i do recall that the restoration of the Victory is an ongoing thing and the walls may have been painted a different colour at some time. From a common sense point of view white would be the thing as the interiors are so gloomy. Red would have been very dark, and in action I dont suppose they worried too much about matching the paintwork to thier blood? Bobs pictures show white interiors.   Ashley 

                             Ps a nice cool blue or perhaps white-with-a-hint of turquoise looks very nice against a cannon.

                          pps  never said the wheels were not wooden.

                          #14488
                          JC Uknz 1
                          Participant
                            @jcuknz1

                            Truck is an American expression and as far as I am concerned suspicious To only be used in the company of those strange people who model the American scene … one of my best freinds does this.

                            ‘Truck’ is a road vehicle.

                            If I were French I would call that locomotive a 231 Pacific, as a memorable short film made in the ’50s with music by Honieger [that’s my phonetic spelling sorry ] which featured such a loco..

                            Actually the ‘correct’ word to describe the leading and trailing wheels of a 4-6-2/231 is a ‘bogie’ as also similar items under modern wagons and carraiges.

                            I model scale railway as well as boats  

                            The craft in question is shortly to make her maiden voyage, perhaps even today .. will report on her if she doesn’t sink. Her guns have four fixed round things similar to early railway wagons  [ apart from the lack of flanges] so I will be safe and call them wheels As castings they are fixed both in place and ability to rotate.

                            #14518
                            Ian_G Hughes
                            Participant
                              @ian_ghughes13480

                              Ee bah goom lad! We’m in a real pickle ‘ere I know that the SNCF class their steam locos by enumerating wheels on one side  only whereas the British number the total. Strange but I too have always referred to the leading set of wheels as the "leading bogie" but the rear set as a "pony truck" although I have heard it referred to as a "trailing bogie"

                               As to the colour of the interior gun decks I too remember the "Victory’s" as white. It is just that Alexander Kent in his Richard Bolitho books goes to great lengths to emphasise the colour as red. The fact of the lower decks being "too dark and dingy" would not have made a ha’porth of difference to their Lordships.

                               Cheers

                               yewmount 

                              #14521
                              JC Uknz 1
                              Participant
                                @jcuknz1

                                Would you believe a flat calm yesterday, although storm and snow to sea level forecast for the next day or so, so no maiden voyage   Looking out over the harbour it was interesting to see the disturbance by shoals of tiny fish swimming just underneath the surface.

                                #14522
                                Bob Abell 2
                                Participant
                                  @bobabell2

                                  What`s he on about?

                                  Mystified Bob

                                  #14524
                                  ashley needham
                                  Participant
                                    @ashleyneedham69188

                                    JC. I am sure the trucks on cannon carriages were called trucks before there was an America…..

                                    One wonders what was in the paint they used for the gun decks, as the cannon barrels are not black just to look good, but because of the gunge they mixed up to stop the rust. Perhaps the stuff they used to use had a res hue just because thats what colour it turned out like, but later on they either changed the mix or didnt bother. OR EVEN on smaller boats that were more likely to be wet below decks the red colour was used but something like the Victory or a 74 gunner (or is it 75?) was that much drier and so white was used. PERHAPS the admirals aboard these larger boats liked a less dingy gun deck when touring ??    Ashley

                                    #14532
                                    Ian_G Hughes
                                    Participant
                                      @ian_ghughes13480

                                      I believe "Victory" was a 100 gun first-rater. I agree too, that ‘truck’ was in use before we colonised America  I think the white on "Victory’s" present gun deck bulkheads is for the benefit of tourists rather than historical accuracy.

                                      Ashley. i don’t think for one minute that an Admiral would even consider visiting the lower decks. In fact I am sure that some of them didn’t know they existed

                                       Cheers

                                       yewmount

                                      #14536
                                      JC Uknz 1
                                      Participant
                                        @jcuknz1

                                        That Americans use truck for road vehicles instead of the English lorry and it originally came from the marine situation doesn’t convince me that they called the wheels trucks which was tyhe point oif my original question.    It is logical that the whole contraption was called a truck or carraige but wheels have been that for yonks.  Could well be that I am getting gun carraige from the military scene rather than the marine.

                                        #14537
                                        Paul T
                                        Participant
                                          @pault84577

                                          Dear All

                                          To resolve this discussion please see an attached extract from http://www.hms-victory.com in which it clearly states that the frame supporting the cannon is called a “Carriage” and that the wheels are called “Trucks” .

                                          You will also see from the picture that the Trucks (wheels) are clearly made from timber.

                                          When the Victory was in active service the inner walls of the gun decks were unpainted as were the carriage and cannon.

                                          Extract as follows:

                                          Side tackles: Fitted each side of the gun, one double block was hooked to the ring bolt fixed to the ship’s side alongside the gunport and the single block rigged to the eye bolt on the side of the carriage cheek, just above the rear truck.

                                          http://www.modelboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/images/member_albums/1859/tackle.jpg

                                          #14560
                                          Ian_G Hughes
                                          Participant
                                            @ian_ghughes13480

                                            Great pic Fat Controller!! reminds me of my pre-sea days at College when we were being taught about different tackles and their usage. I well rememeber that a 2 + 1 was called a "gun tackle"

                                             There is of course another shipboard truck, the round head to the mast often carrying a sheave for a flag hoist. From this the saying –"from truck to keel"

                                            Cheers

                                            #14569
                                            Paul T
                                            Participant
                                              @pault84577

                                              Hi Ian

                                              Oddly enough when I was at building collage and learning about blocks and pulleys the basic 2 + 1 was also referred to as a Gun Tackle and it was a few years before I realised why.

                                              All the best

                                              Paul

                                              #14587
                                              Ian_G Hughes
                                              Participant
                                                @ian_ghughes13480

                                                Hi paul

                                                 Universal language eh! For the life of me I cannot remember the names of the rest but I believe that a 3 + 3 was the largest and that to reeve it one had to start in the middle sheave of one of the blocks. I remember too that there was a standing block and a running block and in your pic of "Victory’s" gun deck the standing block is the double-sheave made fast to the bulkhead while the running block is made fast to the gun carriage.

                                                Going back to the original question there is no doubt at all that ship-board cannon had wodden trucks. Hell, if they were made of iron guess what a horrible mess they would make to a wooden deck as they were trained, fired then the recoil

                                                 Cheers

                                                Ian

                                                #6473
                                                JC Uknz 1
                                                Participant
                                                  @jcuknz1

                                                  made of what?

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