Tools are only as good as their users!

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

This thread has been split off from the Encouraging the next generation of model boaters thread.

Colin

David, I think a few years ago I would have tended to agree with you but more recently I get the feeling that the computer is doing too much of the thinking for us. This was emphatically proved to us only this last year.

Interesting story.

We decided to have a glazed conservatory roof replaced with a solid tiled one and so eventually settled on a local firm to do the job. Because of the tiled covering the new roof had to be of a slightly steeper pitch than the old lean to glazed roof so we had to have an apex. I decided for a few reasons that the apex would be best moving towards the house and the ends were going to be glazed gables.

The old roof came off and the apex was supported by acro props under the apex while the new longitudinal beams and rafters were assembled. Outside was skinned and insulated plasterboard was fitted internally until such point as the last acro prop had to be removed. As the prop was lowered the apex settled with it until such point as the main vertical windows started to lean outwards. It made sense to me as there was no transverse brace holding the rafters from settling and moving outwards. It looked to me like a major design flaw. I asked to speak to the company who manufactured the roof, asking for drawings and calculations, but was told that the ‘designer’ was on holiday for two weeks and he was the only one who could discus the job with me. I stopped the job and started discussing with various local structural engineers, discussing various remedial options such as cross braces or pillars under the apex. It was the worst two weeks I can ever remember going through as we realised the design was faulty and the whole lot could fall down. Even bringing the house wall down with it.

When I eventually got to speak with the designer I again asked to see calculations, drawings and designs but I eventually realised that there were none. The ’designer’ simply puts the dimensions into his computer program, supplied by the roof supplier, and it automatically churns out a parts list for him. He has no input as regards calculations, he does not evaluate the structure from a stress and strain aspect or any other, what I would expect to be, normal design process. The computer program does it all. What I also learned from this conversation was the fact that the design incorporated three transverse wires, which were specifically there to resist the movement we had seen. These wires were missed out of the kit of parts and no one in the subsequent process decided to question this. When I asked what tension was expected in the wires, he had no idea, when I asked what the maximum loading the wires could take, he had no idea and when I asked what loading would be placed on the house bricks by the wire anchors, he had no idea. He assured me that the program took into account the fact that the wall had been built to current building regulations and was of suitable strength. I informed him that the bricks were reclaimed and of around 200 years old and of very inconsistent strength. I asked for an additional wire to take 33% of the load off the wires. Despite this when one was being tensioned the anchor simply pulled out of the brick and needed moving.

What it left me with, apart from the trauma of thinking the house was going to fall down, was the fact that there is almost no knowledge required by the ‘designer’ nowadays when such structures are designed. The only person involved in calculations is the original software designer and he has no clue whatsoever when it comes to real life challenges and things that do not match the ‘norm’. To me this is a scary direction to take but, as always, driven by cost and therefore attractive to the business.

 

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:19:15

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Richard, that is indeed really scary! We have a glass roofed lean to conservatory on our house but the structure, as it is, is essentially self supporting. In our case we wouldn't put a solid roof on as it would take too much light from the house interior but if it were to be tiled the weight would be far, far greater and call the integrity of the existing structure into question.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 29/12/2022 19:05:34

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:10:22

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

Colin, they reckon the weight of the tiled roof is comparable with the weight of the original glass. The tiles are plastic of course and the beams and rafters are all aluminium.

Taking light from the house interior was one concern but as the original leaked like a sieve and then, one day, a glass panel simply exploded we had to do something. We could have had a couple of Velux units but decided they would be more trouble than they would be worth. It has transformed the place and given us a whole new space but I check the wire anchors every morning to see if they have moved!

 

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:10:53

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

Richard – Regarding the project of re-roofing your conservatory. A “software tool” is just that a “tool” to make what would be an onerous task easier and quicker, but with any tool put into the wrong hands or where it is not used for the intended purpose, it becomes dangerous. I take your point regarding the host wall being built from re-cycled used bricks, quite a common practice so I would have hoped that whoever devised/designed the tool would have considered that arising at some time and made provision for it, such as introducing a “factor of safety”. Regarding the missing wires and the fact that they were not called up on the Items List and/or Kitting List, I have two comments. (1) The training of the operator/user should have covered what was to be included in the Kit (2) The proforma used to should have had provision to list the Wires and for some reason where they (or any other item) were not required the proforma i.e. Parts List /Item List should have been marked up as Not Applicable. That method demonstrates that an Item has not been included for a reason and not just missed.

At the end of the day although we have all these computer-based tools, they are there to make the job easier but the operator or the person responsible for the operator(s) needs to have knowledge/experience that the data generated by the tool is correct. Sixty years ago when I was attending the local Sec. Mod, school we were taught Logarithms to make life easier for the more complex multiplication, division and trigonometry, then during my apprenticeship we were taught to use a slide rule for doing the same task and then finally early 1970s calculators came on the scene. The point that I am making is that with all these “tools” the person using them or possibly the person in charge of the workshop, drawing office etc. needs to have sufficient knowledge/experience of what the end result should look like. You look at the two numbers that you want to multiply together, do a bit of rounding up or rounding down and say to yourself the answer will be in the regions of 550. So when your calculator spits out 20,729.73 you know you have pressed the wrong button (or two) somewhere. Sadly I have seen occasions where calculations have gone wrong, designs/drawings have been generated from the incorrect data, equipment ordered, items made……..and so on.

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:11:21

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard,

What a magnificent conservatory ! just looking at your window boards gave me an idea for a 009 narrow gauge end to end line in my conservatory

Thanks I have the sketch book out already !!

Regards & Happy New Year

Ray

 

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:13:29

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

I agree with what you are saying David and the fact that similar thinking can be applied over the years but you frequently use the word 'should', and my concern nowadays is that all too frequently what should happen or be in place simply isn't. For instance your comment about reclaimed brick, I agree it should have been accounted for but the software simply was not able to take this into account, obviously for the very reason that reclaimed brick is very inconsistent in its quality. That's when you need a designer who knows what he is doing and can apply a bespoke design to suit the available conditions. As regards training and pro-formas that is all pie in the sky at these sort of small business levels. I have absolutely no experience or training in any form of building design but I decided to add another wire and the fact that one pulled out proved my concerns were valid.

What has concerned me for many years now is that we are creating 'operators' rather than 'thinkers'. While we all agree that the operator should be capable of knowing the theory behind what he is doing, invariably they don't. Far too much of their learning capacity is taken up with learning how to use the latest version of the software or the machine that runs it. The challenge all this seems to generate is generations of so called technical people who actually believe that they are engineers and technicians but they are so reliant now on the tools they have that they are incapable of doing things from first principles.

How you then attract youngsters growing up in this environment to want to build models is getting increasingly difficult. What attracts their interest is seeing a 3D printer create an object that they have designed in a laptop. This is seen nowadays as being creative. They have no interest in glueing a couple of bits of wood together that they have fashioned themselves with hand tools because they see no sense of achievement in that.

I think Ray has the right idea by catching them very young before they are exposed too much to the wonders of computerised technology and try to create a sense of achievement in creating something by nothing more than their own hands. I learnt a huge amount of my attitude that you can do anything if you put your mind to it from my father, which has stood me in good stead all my life, but I think parents nowadays have a much harder sell.

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:12:07

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

Posted by Ray Wood 2 on 30/12/2022 09:32:53:

Hi Richard,

What a magnificent conservatory ! just looking at your window boards gave me an idea for a 009 narrow gauge end to end line in my conservatory

Thanks I have the sketch book out already !!

Regards & Happy New Year

Ray

 

Now there is an interesting idea. Not sure I would get that past the authorities though!

Happy New Year to you as well Ray, stay safe.

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:12:58

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Richard, I didn't realise they were lightweight plastic tiles. However, a lean to conservatory where any horizontal force is likely to be in compression against the house structure is perhaps less worrying than a tension situation where there is an outward pull on the wall. I can understand you checking the wires! Less unsightly than flying butresses though

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:24:48

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

David is 100% correct when saying that in making a detailed calculation you need to have a good idea of the ball park limits of the correct solution. And, where possible, reversing the result should bring you back to your initial data as a check.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

Posted by Colin Bishop on 30/12/2022 10:28:00:

David is 100% correct when saying that in making a detailed calculation you need to have a good idea of the ball park limits of the correct solution. And, where possible, reversing the result should bring you back to your initial data as a check.

Colin

I fully agree Colin and, as one of the last generations to be taught how to use a slide rule at school, it has always been my own thought process when dealing with a challenge. The problem with a lot of computer software nowadays is that you can put rubbish in and get rubbish out but too many people don't realise it is rubbish because they didn't know what to expect!

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