Technological Progress – Is it getting too complicated?

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Split post to fit the software!!

Some recent posts on here and elsewhere have got me thinking about the supposed benefits of new technology and how they sometimes come at a price.

A typical example is the car industry. Around 20 years or so ago you had a choice of mass market cars which were excellently designed, well appointed, handled well, were reliable and well protected against rust. They were also readily easy to repair if they did go wrong. For example the Mk 3 Ford Mondeo. They were essentially the end product of years of development of conventional motor engineering which ironed out most of the faults which had plagued their predecessors. Many are still on the road today.

Since then cars have become progressively more complex and loaded up with extra bells and whistles such as Sat Nav, lane control, radar cruise control, blind spot monitoring and lots of fancy multi media electronics etc. etc., not to mention all the emission control gadgetry. The list goes on and on even for comparatively modest vehicles.

But with that come increased weight, propensity for the electronics to mysteriously fail with little clue as to why, eye wateringly expensive repair bills for the slightest problem and expensive basic maintenance such as having to remove wheel arches to change headlight bulbs. Steel is now thinner and less well protected against rust, not good news for people buying 3 year old vehicles. So, on the one hand, there have been some nice improvements but they have come at a price.

Colin – now see part 2 below

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Do you need to be very dedicated to enter the hobby these days?

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Part 2:

I think you might look at model boating in a similar way. From beginning in the 1960s, mass market RC steadily developed through single channel, Reed sets, 27Mhz followed by 40MHz proportional, topping out with the introduction of 2.4GHz which liberated us from the tyranny of crystals.

Brushed motors became progressively more efficient with a wide range of specifications to suit most applications at low cost. Speed controller costs came down and in most cases were simple ‘plug and play’. Choice of battery was between Sealed Lead Acid in all shapes and sizes and in 6v or 12v versions which you could mount in any position and NiCads, later superseded by NiMh cells which were remarkably tolerant of charging regimes and which have become available in ever greater capacities in standard cell sizes offering great advantages over SLAs in most situations.

At this point we seemed to have reached a ‘plateau’ where things were readily understandable to existing boaters and new entrants to the hobby.

And then brushless motors and LiPo batteries came along! Much excitement for the genuine major performance and efficiency improvements they offered and which the techies among us have embraced with joy and gratitude. But the downside is that things have now become a lot more complicated as just a brief look at questions on forums show. It has made things a lot more difficult for newcomers to get up to speed (literally).

Brushless motor specifications are something of a no go area in many respects. How many Kv do I need, should I choose an inrunner or outrunner, must I have a special ESC for each motor in twin screw setups, how do I program the ESCs, must I have a LiPo battery for a brushless motor (depends on the type of model). Can I use a car or aircraft ESC, which ones have reverse or regenerative braking etc. etc.? Little wonder people are confused in getting to grips with all this.

And the radios are not always straightforward either. I want an extra RX, do I need DMSL or DSMX to match my existing TX. Is the answer an Orange or a Lemon? Will a park flyer combo do for my boat or should I have full range?

Yes, the answers are all out there somewhere in cyberspace but you have to do a lot of homework to ensure you get what you want. A Mayhem member recently bought a 2+2 set believing he had two twin axis sticks but the LH stick just had vertical movement and the RH stick horizontal. The other two channels were on auxiliary switches. Careful reading of the specification did show this but it wasn’t altogether obvious and the customer is pretty fed up about it.

Sorry for the long post but I thought it might initiate some discussion as to why people are put off from joining the hobby. OK if you are on the inside but a bit impenetrable otherwise.

Colin

[Dave Smith 17Participant @davesmith17]

I started out with a super regen single channel radio, one button to push. I managed to guide my crude own design boat around the lake with it, but I certainly didn't see multi channel prop gear as anything other than a (expensive) step forward. I now happily embrace 2.4 radios and certainly wouldn't willingly go back to 27 or 40 mHz and a peg board!

I guess that how people developments depends on far back down the line they started.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, but in the old days it was complicated and it is now complicated again but in the interim there was a time when things were relatively simple and we seem to have moved on from that.

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Agree about cars. I am one of those strange people who doesn't mind opening the door by sticking a key in the lock and turning it. Feel competant enough to wind the window down and up with a handle rather than using a button and electric motor. Don't like the new breed of car where I can't see the front when sitting in the driving position. Have never used the radio or sound system in it ever. Do appreciate the air-conditioning though, especially on a day like today.

Modern shipmodelling just washes over me as I make everything myself. I once made a couple of radio controlled ships, one a steamer and one a schooner, but they both had 27mHz gear. Don't know if they are still legal today, but they did everything I needed. Normal electric motor sufficent to drive the 9-knot tramp steamer at slow speed. Have no interest in triangular shaped boat tearing around at fifty knots. Here is tramp steamer – moved like an elephant! Gave up R/C – No water available nearby –

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Not wanting to be the profit of doom, but the basics of radio controlled boats hasn't changed in 50 years they go forwards & backwards, left and right still the same, the challenge of making your own models still lives on in us for what ever our motivations. RC was magic for us as kids, things have moved on ! Radio flying is something with the 3rd dimension so skill and danger keeps it challenging and popular 😀

Happy days Ray

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

I believe that the `model boat' hobby can be as basic or complex as you want it. About 10 years ago when I retired and entered the world of model boats, I scratch built a Springer pusher tug which (a) floated and (b) via a cheap 2 channel 40Hz radio kit, went Forward and Reverse as well as Left and Right. However, as I progressed each model got more complex as I added lights, sound modules etc., which are now controlled via my 7 channel 2.4 radio kit and numerous `black boxes' with an Action sticker on the outside. However, my original Springer till gets used, but obviously does not possess the bells and whistles of the later models.

[Tim CooperParticipant @timcooper90034]

Agree about the cars. I do like air con, so does my dog and wife, but some of the features on our car we have never used.

Regarding boats I have boats on 2 channels and one on 9 channels, and few boats with brushless motors but no Lipos.

Whether you want extra working features is personal choice. I'm building a 1/35 Schnellboot with working features and a DM Fairey with none, at the moment.

Tim

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

For my part, when returning to the hobby in 2013 after a +/- 30 year hiatus, I did indeed find the learning curve a tad on the steep side; however, most of the new stuff was easy enough to figure out with a bit of reading (which of course as already remarked is usually only a few on-line searches away).

The one thing that did and still does bother me is that essentially all modern r/c equipment beyond the most basic sets is tailor made for models that take to the sky, and this is where I feel that the analogy with modern cars does break down a bit.

Yes. Modern cars come with a carload (ha!) of bells, whistles, horns and tooters, many of which may be surplus to requirement for a good number of drivers. However, all those things are there to address issues directly related to driving or being in a car. They may do this well or less so. They may be reliable or not. They may be (too) expensive to buy or maintain. But at least they are to the purpose in hand.

Multi-channel 2.4 GHz, computerized r/c, on the other hand, also comes with numerous bells, whistles, etc., but these have not in any way been designed with model boating requirements in mind. On the contrary, technological advances have been harnessed to solve problems and automate handling for people why fly plane and helicopter models. I have never been one of those people. Please don't get me wrong: I do not for moment mean to disparage them or their hobby. It is just that it was never my hobby, and so what I don't know about flaps and ailerons and air speeds and tail rotors and other thingummies would probably fill quite a few volumes.

Alas, flaps & co. do fill other volumes to the bursting point, namely the manuals and instructions for the r/c sets one has to buy if one wishes to enjoy the advantages of 2.4 GHz, and have a channel count higher than four.

Yes, useful information can be gleaned from said manuals, if one is prepared to suffer a subsequent minor headache, but it is much harder than it would have been, had there also been a chapter in there headed "So, You Want To Use This Set In A Boat, Do You?"

By the way: there might just be a market for a good booklet on that subject, if someone with a better understanding than mine were to feel up to writing one …

The worst bit for me, however, is that it makes it much harder to know just which set to buy! All the brochures and websites will again go on and on about flaps and ailerons and tail rotors and how to mix these to the equivalent of six parts gin to one part vermouth … but they will never tell me if set ABC-47 will do me better as a model boater than will set ZYX-74. Grrr.

End of gripe. Other than that, I'm on the whole delighted with what technological progress has done for our hobby (and also with most of the gadgetry in my car)

Mattias

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Good points Mattias. They also demonstrate just how small the model boating market is compared with the model flying community.

However if you stick to a reasonably low spec radio setup as meant for beginners to flying then these don't feature all the computerised complications you will never need to use on the pond and still provide a decent channel count. A lot cheaper too!

Colin

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Back then, technology was simple enough for most people to understand. You could see things working and often, with very simple tools, fix them. As Colin said, nowadays you need a comprehensive toolkit up to and including a full workshop with a block and tackle to change a headlight bulb. I recently paid a couple of quid to a car accessory shop guy to change an indicator bulb – he seemingly had the ability to see round corners and was probably double jointed. Cars have become much more complex, needing to fit much more into less space.

The path that has been taken is that to make the operation of whatever technology easier, the technology has become ever more complex, to the point where virtually nobody can understand it. They can use it, but it is now all sealed boxes that are replaceable, but not repairable, and to almost everybody, they are magic.

Somebody once said that any sufficiently advanced technology would be regarded as magic by those who were not in on the secret. Being totally reliant on technology that nobody understands is a scary prospect.

A quote from Montgomery Scott – "the more you complicate the plumbing, the easier it is to stop up the drain"

[Francis MacnaughtonParticipant @francismacnaughton39461]

I also date back to the single channel push button era so have been through all the various changes in RC technology. From my perspective there is an awful lot to be very grateful for and many of the models that I have recently completed usually in 1/200th scale could never have worked in earlier times because the RC gear then was too big, too heavy and especially too expensive. Working at that scale is pretty much essential as there isn't the space to keep larger models. If I remember correctly, Fleetscale started using 1/128th scale in the 1980s as the smallest practical size then for an RC WW2 destroyer. Nowadays 1/250th scale would be perfectly feasible using some of the micro gear developed for lightweight aircraft.

Low cost is also very helpful – I don't have to keep moving the receiver and ESCs from model to model when a mini 2.4 GHz Rx is only £8 or so to buy and it can help reduce the internal access arrangements so delicate detail is less likely to get damaged.

I would add that there has also been huge leaps in many other aspects of modelling – DIY resin moulding of fittings is now common and photoetching services are also a practical way to get some items made while 3D printing is becoming an increasingly useful option. Finally, the Internet allows me to search virtually the whole world for information, check what is held in many museums and, perhaps most important of all, correspond with other people with the same interest to share information quickly and cheaply.

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Having qualified in marine communications in 1960, I was sent on an "Advanced Marine Electronics" diploma course in 1974. The course was six monthis in length, and had no relevance to the job I was doing in passenger liners, and totally beyond my understanding anyway! I walked out of the course after 3 months, and returned to sea, having been assured that I had destroyed my future prospects. I decided that I would never again attend any more technical college electronic coureses, even if it meant them getting rid of me. I began plans for the future at that time with writing and ship model building, but it was another 18 years before I took voluntary redundancy in 1992 from the most advanced and electronically up-to-date passenger liner ever built in the UK, as by then, I was finding even the practical demands of modern electronic "junk" was getting rather too heavy. Best decision I ever made leaving the rat race, and and I am now  indiffernt to modern electronics, although I can still work them, and even repair them a lot of the time.

Bob

Rat Race link **LINK**

Edited By Bob Wilson on 24/07/2019 11:46:44

Edited By Bob Wilson on 24/07/2019 11:47:03

Edited By Bob Wilson on 24/07/2019 11:48:56

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Is the hot weather bringing out the depressive side of your natures?

Whilst I agree that cars 'back in the day' were easy to maintain they were also badly designed, badly made, death traps that would squash the nut holding the wheel in any impact above 25mph. We no longer have to plan our routes to avoid big hills nor need to carry such things as tool kits, water, fan belts, grease guns and spare bulbs.

Modern modelling electronics are simple 'plug and play' devices which is far better that the old cats whisker systems that were cutting edge back in the 60s and interference free (remember the fear and frustration when CB broadcasters used to override your signal)

Come on chaps and embrace the tecnoligy that the 21st century offers.

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Nothing more depressing than modern day electronics when one is helpless to repair things at component level. I doubt if I would have any problem setting up modern R/C systems, because as you say it is all "plug and play," but that doesn't suit my "practical" leanings. When I first got a computer, I couldn't figure out how to switch it off, and had to phone the help line. What an idiot I must have been not knowing that the start button had to be pressed to turn it off!

This is my level, designed and built by myself, and works a treat. Glad I was born in 1944!

Edited By Bob Wilson on 24/07/2019 12:37:09

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

"Hear, hear!" for Francis and Paul. I also go back a fair way – in my case to an REP Unitone super-regen single channel receiver with an ED Black Prince ground-based tranny – microswitch and all – plus rubber-band driven Fred Rising escapements, HT, LT and escapement batteries, and sequential all-or-nothing rudder control with no motor speed control. All that for over a year's pocket-money and deepest joy if you came home from flying without a bag of bits!

I'm no genius but I've kept up with the development of RC gear by owning it, using it and occasionally reading up about it. If you enjoy something as a hobby then that's what you do. As for not understanding how things work, hey – do you know how your TV works? Nope, but you do know how to change channels and turn the volume up/down. Why beat yourself up because you didn't quite manage that PhD in Electronics?

As for modern cars I wouldn't swap my 2015 Toyota for my old 105E 'Z-back' Anglia, even though it was my first and I loved it dearly. Nostalgia can be comforting but it's not a good place to wallow.

Dave M

[NoelParticipant @noel26080]

The car analogy is interesting, I think there has been a sweet spot with automotive development around perhaps 15 years ago when electronics and various electrical control systems contributed to increased reliability and serviceability in cars, but left them still within reach of DIY repair.
Today whilst a lot of cars feel over complicated, the basic mechanics that make it go are pretty mature and solid, and a lot of the fluff and fipperies are all tied up with Navigation, phone integration, and various other driver aids that often matter very little to a lot of end-users (ie. the driver).

With RC technology, it can seem very impenetrable. I have come back to RC with boats after last really doing it with cars in the early 1990s.
Most stuff is recognisable. NIMH batteries are like NICads only with bigger numbers on them.
LIPOs are great, but a bit delicate.
Solid state brushed ESCs are cheaper than they were when I was a lad, and thats even the good quality ones.
I like 2.4GHZ TX/RX. I set myself up with DSMX buying cheapo secondhand TXs and a load of LEMONrx receivers for beer money.
The first boat I did recently, a couple of years ago, I fitted out with NIMHs, a big brushed motor from MFA, a traditional ESC and secondhand DSM RC. It all felt much like the "old days" only a bit cheaper, and with better batteries!

I think a lot of the confusion and difficulty arises when the novice looks on the internet or ebay for items and just doesn't know what to do.
There is so much product available that if you know roughly what you are after (like I did) you get by.
If you don't then it can seem overwhelming.
But, its a lot less overwhelming if you go into a shop and ask someone.

In the old days there was no internet or forums – you learned about stuff from a club, or a shop.
I learned all I knew about RC cars from friends at school who raced them too, and the shop we bought our gear from.
I know everyone thinks the world revolves around social media, facebook groups, forums and the like, and always want manufactured goods cheap cheap cheap from ebay or wherever, but if you go into a shop then you might pay 15% more but they will actually help you out and demystify the products.
Luckily there are still model shops around. Like any physical retail business, to survive you need to add value and I think a lot of them do – if you go in and ask.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

This is my level, designed and built by myself, and works a treat. Glad I was born in 1944

Bob

The beautiful piece of equipment that you built can now fit into something the size of your fingernail so just imagine what you could build if you had been born in 1984, the entire spectrum of radio communication would be at your fingertips from Radio Astronomy through Microwave Radio to Laser based communication.

I appreciate your comments about the skills required to repair a component but in these days of cheap and easily changed components isn't it a waste of the operators time to try and repair an item.

I imagine that the first Marconi radio operators bemoaned the flashy equipment that became available post WW2 complaining that these new fellows wouldn't know how to poach a cat to get the correct consistency of catgut.

Dear All

Time moves on and every new generation improves upon technology…………..if they didn't we wouldn't be having this online conversation in our nice warm houses…..instead of living in caves and throwing Badgers at each other.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, technology moves on, but not always to the benefit of the consumer.

Take British Airway's densification programme for example. Aircraft have become much safer and reliable in recent years which is all to the good.

At the same time engines have become even more powerful, quieter and more fuel efficient which should also be to the good!

But… BA have exploited that extra power and efficiency by cramming in more seats and removing toilet facilities to make room for them. So the poor punter is trussed into a seat with minimal legroom and if nature calls there are only two lavatories on board for around 190 passengers, one of which is reserved for the small number of idiots up front paying for so called 'business class' which is actually a standard legroom seat but with the middlle seat of a row of three left empty.

You can probably manage without crossing your legs on a short flight such as UK to Spain or Italy but a 4 hour stint to Greece has a good proportion of the passengers clogging the aisle in a queue for the loo three hours out while the cabin crew desperately try to flog overpriced Marks& Spencer sandwiches to those still in their seats and only accept credit card payments, not cash.

You couldn't make it up.

Colin

 

Edited By Colin Bishop on 24/07/2019 18:17:24

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

The world would not be at my fingetips in the electronics world if I was born in 1984 (with the same mental capabilities). I am just not clever enough to take it in. Left school without a single O level at 15 and it was all I could do to get a first class PMG radio certificate on valve equipment, and a further supreme effort to get the radar servicing certificate on the last examination on valve equipment. Walked out of the Advance Marine Electronic Diploma course in 1974 after thirteen years at sea, after rising from radio officer on a North Sea collier to 2nd radio officer on one of the finest passenger liners in the world, RMS Windsor Castle. Eventually became chief in RMS Good Hope Castle, but then they sold the passenger fleet. Still ended up on the newest and most expenisve passenger ship (per ton) ever built for British owners in 1989. (RMS St Helena – Google it for hundreds of photos). But by late 1992, I was sick of all the new electronic junk that cost thousands of pounds a time to replace faulty circuit boards – I would not sail on any of the present day self-propelled accommodation barges even if I was given a free ticket. The merchant navy and electronics of today has no interst whatsoever for me, although I still have my oscilloscope and full range of test equipment and can usually repair domestic electronics myself rather than pay through the nose for it Below, on my North Sea collier in 1962 (my 4th ship). Above aboard RMS St Helena, passenger liner, 1992 during my last few days before leaving the rat race! Never missed it one bit!

Edited By Bob Wilson on 24/07/2019 18:41:06

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Bob

You can't fool us, you were an announcer

on the BBC in your dinner jacket 😀

Regards Ray

I bet those whites would be handy in this heat 😃

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Hi Ray

Bob Wlson Sportscaster! Wish I got his money

The photo was taken in October in the Bay of Biscay. We had a distressing habit of going into whites 2nd day out of UK and remaining in them all the way to Cape Town and back and going into blues the day we arrived back in UK It was supposed to fool the passengers into thinking they were in hot sunny weather! Photo not posed. I was repairing a telephone, and a passenger crept in and took photo of me and posted it to me later!

Regards

Bob

[Gary Hill 1Participant @garyhill1]

Interesting comments about modern cars, but I wouldn't want to go back to the days where I would seem to spend my weekends replacing brakes/exhausts/failed bulbs or getting punctures repaired. In my last 10 years at work I drove around 20k miles a year with no problems, just a normal service every 10k.

As a boy rc planes were an impossible dream it was either free flight rubber powered or saving up for a couple of years to buy a diesel motor for control line. Now I have half a dozen mostly foam aircraft that fly really well with telemetry on my £130 transmitter including a £13 vario that gives me vertical speed indication audibly just like the full size gliders I used to fly, a sub £10 battery sensor that tells me the state of each cell of the flight battery and a tiny gps unit in a flying wing just for fun to see how fast it's going and how high.

Gary

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

We had a Nissan Micra for 18 years and it never broke down. Finally had to get rid of it because the gear change was getting slightly stiff and spares no longer available. Got a Nissan Pixo, but dislike it because I can't see the bonnet when driving, so no more parking in limited spaces. Using Park & Ride more and more. If I get a new computer printer, I know for a fact that it will be obsolete in a few months.

Bob

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