H.F.M. Thames Barge

[Fred Ellis 1Participant @fredellis1]

Good Morning to One & All

I have been very lucky to have been given a H.F.M. Thames Barg.

the info that I am looking for is the layout for the control of the sails – deck fittings – size of the sails and any other details.

I have asked on most of the Thames Barges sites for any info.

Thank you for any help you can give

Fred

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

You lucky man Fred.  I do like the look of the Thames barges and the sedate and majestic way they sail.  Ray knows these things inside out so I’m sure he will be able to help.

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hello Fred

Show us some pictures.

I don’t know the model. What size is it?

I am also a Thames Barge fan.

Tim R

[Fred Ellis 1Participant @fredellis1]

Hi Tim

Thank you for your offer of help, I will get all the detail and post photos.

Fred

[Fred Ellis 1Participant @fredellis1]

Hi One & All

I will now try a show you the HFM Thames Barge, that was donated to me,

Photo 1 is of the barge in her raw state.

As you see some work has been started, the main mast I have just placed for the photo.

Photo 2 is of the stern, (but you know that) he hatch is removable, I take it that a small sail should go over the rudder.

Phot3 Yes this is the bow, the spar folds back into the barge, I was wondering if there should be some form of stop to stop this happening under sail,

 

Photo 3 The side boards, going on some of the photos that I have found, it looks as if they should be in line with the mast,

Photo 4 the two half’s of the keel, I take it that this is for a very windy day, I will fill it with lead and just hope it stays together,

photo 5 Would this be the keel for a light wind?

Then I have a lot of small items .

O.K so I am thinking that I am out of my depth here, I only had a pond yacht back in the 50’s so I have no idea just how I should go about rebuilding the barge, I am asking for any help you can give me.

Fred

 

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hello Fred

A few things here on what what looks like a very nice model.

Yes the small sail goes over the rudder.  It doesn’t contribute much to propulsion but helps when going from one tack to another by pushing the stern around.

The spar at the bow is the bowsprit and needs to be held done by a stay that goes from the end of the stay to a fitting low down on the bow there are various arrangements to allow the bowsprit to be raised vertical in a dock.  Ray will be able to show you some details I am sure.

If anything , the leeboards should be just aft of the mast.  Ray can probably give you a dimension.

Don’t be tempted to sail the boat without the keel.  Without it, it will capsize in the slightest breeze.  Fill with the smallest lead shot you can find will give the heaviest keel.

The last piece is probably an extension for the rudder.  The rudder of a Thames Barge does not extend below the hull which allows them to sit on the mud.  In a model this has to be extended for it to have any useful effect.

I am very slowly building Veronica renamed Kimberley which was a barge I was once associated with.

It should be great fun restoring and completing that model.

Tim R

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hello Fred,

As Tim says she won’t sail without the ballast bulb keel fitted, the original HFM kits were supplied with a steel piece of steel bar for the ballast which even if painted eventually rusts and blows the the 2 halves apart 🙁 I know this from experience as I had the HFM 590 which was brilliant little yacht 🙂 in the back of the car whenever I saw a lake.

The Lea boards are only for show and hang on the sides hoisted up, If you refer to my first post on Thames Sailing Barge stuff you can see me building the 30″ 1/32nd scale Giralda, which with a bit of tweaking was a fast barge in her class.

The unusual feature of the HFM barge is the tiller extending right forwards over the rear cabin which is quite strange as that is where most barges hade the mizzen mast.

You will only need steering control servo and a means of adjusting the main sail via a servo with an extension arm, an example of which a can be found on my Lysander sailing cruiser photos the build thread is on this forum.

Anymore questions fire away 🙂 where are you based ??

Regards Ray

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Fred,

These pictures will give you an idea on the sail plan and the hull, I wouldn’t bother with the Bow Sprit, keep it simple as a Staysail barge 🙂

Regards Ray

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Hi Ray, approx. how much length of pull is required for Lysander and what is the effect of the sheet arrangement you have used, does it double the length of pull? There’s probably a technical term for this!

Chris

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Chris,

Yes with the Lysander arrangement you have a 2 – 1 advantage which equals twice the length of the servo arm travel, If that makes sense 🙂 Ideal for casual sailing, come to think of it my Micro Magic has the same arrangement and is a best boat I have.

Regards  Ray

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Chris

Ray has answered your question.  You get twice the movement but half the torque so it works well with small boats where less power is required.  Galileo use the same system but it is marginal in a blow and sometimes I have to luff up to let the sail flap a bit to get the sails fully sheeted in.

The geometry important too but I think I would need a sketch to explain that.

Ray has scale sheeting arrangements on his boats where the sheet goes to the end of the boom.  This is ok if you are only controlling the main but causes problems if you ant to control the jib as well.  The between the point of attachment and the gooseneck or swivel needs to be roughly the same.

Small winches are so cheap now with a big choice of the number of turns.  I have winches in Wild Duck and Eventide.

Tim R

[Philip OxleyParticipant @inonowt]

Hi.

I read somewhere about limiting the rudder servo to 20° to avoid the boat digging in on high speed turns.  Is this an electrical thing, and if so how(?), or is it just the position of the rod on the tiler/ servo arms.

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

I assume you are referring to a high performance model, which a Thames barge most certainly isn’t.  I don’t think a Thames barge is going to suffer any of those kind of challenges when turning.

You are quite correct though when it comes to higher performance models.  I do Club 500 racing and reduce my rudder throw specifically to prevent it digging in if I push the stick too far over, particularly to port.  You can reduce the throw by either moving the rudder linkage at the servo end closer to the servo centre of rotation or moving the linkage further away from the rudder stock at the tiller arm end.  If you have an adjustment on the range of movement in your radio then you can adjust the range in the transmitter accordingly.  I prefer to set my range with the radio transmitter as it is much more convenient and has far more precise adjustment.  I think mine is set at around 85% range.  This depends on your own trial and error to find the sharpest turn possible while preventing the boat digging in.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think the post may have been posted in the wrong topic. If so – please confirm and I will move it.

[Philip OxleyParticipant @inonowt]

Hi.

Sorry.  Thought just came to me while reading about servo arm travel.

By all means move it to a more suitable place.

Thanks Richard for your response.

Philip

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Ray and Tim. Thanks for the info.

I’m thinking of just controlling the mainsail and letting the jib do it’s own thing. I’m also thinking of pushing the boat out (pun intended!) and using one of the Hitec Linear servos. Probably a 50mm throw one and using the suggested layout. I will need to work out how much sheet movement is required and if I need more they do a 100mm throw model.

Chris

 

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

That’s something new on me Chris.  Although, having said that, I use surface mounted point motors on my railway layout and they work linearly so it should have come as such a surprise to see the same idea as a servo.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Philip, I don’t seem to be able to move it to the Huntsman topic but I confirm what Richard says. My SLEC Huntsman is VERY sensitive to the amount of rudder as it is relatively long and thin. Too much rudder did not cause it to dig in but it did practically put it on its side!

I think the safest method is to limit the rudder throw on the linkage.

Put any replies on the Huntsman topic.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonModerator @richardsimpson88330]

I looked as well Colin and while it looked like it would allow me to move it, the Fairey Huntsman topic didn’t appear in the drop down list of available topics I could move it to!  Oh well!

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Richard, no, it seems you can only move it to another thread in the same ‘forum’. You can’t move it to another subject heading. WordPress moves in mysterious ways…

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Chris,

With the extension arm as on Lysander the end of the arm moves 150mm giving me 300mm sheet travel 🙂 the Linear servo won’t have anywhere near enough travel 🙁 very pretty though !!

Regards Ray

[Fred Ellis 1Participant @fredellis1]

Thank you to Tom & Ray for the info that you have given.

As to my barge she is 26″ long – 7″ beam – with an 8″ bowsprit – Main mast 12 1/2″ from the deck – the one from the mast which the main sail is fixed too would that be the Boom is 19″.

Back to the bowsprit I was thinking of making an end cap so that I could fix some form of chain, which would then be fixed to the hull, how doe’s that sound?

Ray I am in Peacehaven just east of Brighton.

Fred

[Chris FellowsParticipant @chrisfellows72943]

Blimey Ray, that seems like a lot of travel, wasn’t expecting anything like that! Only an idea at the moment – needs more investigation.

Sorry for hijacking your thread Fred.

Chris

[Fred Ellis 1Participant @fredellis1]

That’s O.K Chris

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hello Fred,

I was speaking to one of our Chantry MBC members, unfortunately I can’t recall his name ! who has been trying to contact you maybe on Facebook or another forum he has the same HFM barge which he sails, and has all the drawings and instructions which I think he’s willing to send to you 🙂

BTW we had a good morning racing with 14 Victoria’s and maybe 12 DF 65’s our last races before Christmas 🙂

Regards Ray

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