Cotton sail making

[Philip VickersParticipant @philipvickers99959]

It's now time to make the sails for my lobster smack, I have some light cotton material to use, and even made paper patterns, but still confused about the 'weft/weave/straight of cloth' debate. Obviously the material stretches in one direction, so on a gaff rig, in what direction should the material be made up ? ie: stretchy bit parallel to the leach ? I'm not doing the sewing bit myself so any tips would be gratefully received so that I can pass them on to the 'seamstress' !

[Philip VickersParticipant @philipvickers99959]

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I'll be interested in replies to this as well Phil…….as My wife will be embarking on making two sets of sails for my new sailing lifeboats soon……..will watch with interest.

neil.

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

An interesting item on basic sailmaking appeared in the September 2012 Model Boats magazine – How to make Jenny's sails by Russell Potts (repeated from a 1989 issue).

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Both R Griffin in Model Racing Yacht Construction and Vic Smeed in Boat Modelling state that the selvedge should be parallel with the leach. It's what I (or I should say, my wife) has done in the past when making sails from poly-cotton.

There is a section on sailmaking in Scale Sailing Models by Philip Vaughan Williams and he states that the longest run of a sail should follow the weft and includes adiagram to illustrate this.

The other book I have, which has a section on sailmaking, is Scale Model Sailing Ships edited by John Bowen- the sailmaking section was written by Max Davey, but he makes no mention of the direction of the cloth that I can see. It might be worth seeing if your local library could get hold of either of the latter books.

Hope this is of some help…Ian

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Hi All,

I make sails for yachts, lifeboats and Thames barges and have written a short series of articles on how I did it my way for AMBO. Unfortunately they are not on the website at present, I think they may appear shortly. If anyone wants them send me a PM.

The weft and warp (weave), and selvage are explained. The weft is woven on, so the weft runs the longway through the cloth roll and parallel to it on the cloth edge is the selvage. The warp (weave) is about the weft, so is at right angles to both selvage and weft.

In almost all sails, the weft should be parallel to the leech of the sail, I say almost all, topsails are an oddity.

Here's some lifeboat sails made for a Watson, made using the photograph as the template.

Regards all, Kimosubby

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 23/04/2013 18:52:40

[Philip VickersParticipant @philipvickers99959]

Thanks very much for all your replies. So, to put it simply, the cloth stretches in only one direction, so does this stretch direction run parellel to the leach on a gaff sail & on a jib ? I have looked at some books I have on scale model making, but it's not very clear. I am getting a friendly tailor to make up the rig. I have all the material, paper patterns, bolt rope, reefing lines,eyelets etc, but if I can explain to him how it should be done it might save a baggy disaster ! I have read a couple of articles in the old Scale Sailing Association magasines, but they are too complex in this instance. Maybe I should learn to sew !

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Hi Philip,

The attached couple of pictures might help. They show the mainsail on my wife's gaff rigged ketch which was made exactly as described in Kim and Ians posts above, with the leach of the sail parallel to the selvedge of the material.

The picture below shows a section of the leach edge of the sail (the aft edge) and is taken in the same orientation as the complete sail picture above.

You can just about make out the weave of the material with the weft running down the sail, parallel to the leach and the warp running across the sail at right angles to the leach.

The material is reluctant to stretch if you pull it along the line of the warp or the weft. It is easiest to stretch if you pull it at 45 degrees to the warp and the weft. I guess the principle of how you align the material is related to this, maybe to try and prevent the edges of the sail streching but allowing the middle of the sail to fill out and take a more aerodynamic shape.

Gareth

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Oh these are wonderful guys…please keep the info coming.

neil.

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Gareth,

thank you, your pictures are worth a thousand words. The close up also shows another part of sail making oft overlooked, the bolt rope.

On almost all canvas type sails there is a bolt rope, and it is there to hold the sail in shape, and actually can be sewn on to define the sail shape when the sail is under load. You should also be aware that the tablings (hems of the sail) and the bolt rope are sewn to the port side of any sail – this is convention and applies to square sails too, though in their case, the bolt rope is sewn to the rear side.

All the sail ropes attach to the bolt rope too – even when taken to a sewn on grommet (eyeley) – as the grommet is spliced and lashed to the bolt rope. The sail ropes being sheet, halliard, guy and brail. The sheet pulls the sail in or out to set the sail and is attached to the clew; the halliard hoists the sail; the guy anchors the foot of the sail or inboard end of a spinnaker and the brail can be used to shorten or furl a sail.

Can anyone name the only rope on a sailing vessel?

It all sounds complicated, but is quite logical, just another area to understand. After all, there are master shipwrights, master riggers and master sailmakers out there.

Kimosubby

[Philip VickersParticipant @philipvickers99959]

Well, I think that about covers it ! Thanks to you all for your input.

[Philip VickersParticipant @philipvickers99959]

Well, I think that about covers it ! Thanks to you all for your input.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

absolutely brilliant guys…………….my wife will now be deleriously happy with all that info……….just got to break it to her now that she's making my six sails, lol

 

Just one more question from you please Kim……..does the bolt rope go all the way around the perinmeter of each sail, and if it does, where is the starting point for the end of the rope.

 

neil

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 10/05/2013 12:31:13

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

absolutely brilliant guys…………….my wife will now be deleriously happy with all that info……….just got to break it to her now that she's making my six sails, lol

 

Just one more question from you please Kim……..does the bolt rope go all the way around the perinmeter of each sail, and if it does, where is the starting point for the end of the rope.

 

neil

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 10/05/2013 12:31:13

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

absolutely brilliant guys…………….my wife will now be deleriously happy with all that info……….just got to break it to her now that she's making my six sails, lol

 

Just one more question from you please Kim……..does the bolt rope go all the way around the perinmeter of each sail, and if it does, where is the starting point for the end of the rope.

 

neil

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 10/05/2013 12:31:13

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Greetings Neil, without knowing what sails for what model I can only give you a general answer.

If required, the bolt rope forms a complete perimeter for the sail, this holds for any rectangular sail whether square or rhomboid. It also holds for top sails, spankers, drivers etc and for some staysails on big period ships.

The size of the bolt rope varies according to which part of the sail it is on. On a Thames barge the top rope is the biggest, the two side bolt ropes being lighter, and the bottom rope bigger than the sides but smaller than the top! All are spliced to each other.

For a model even at 1/12 it's probably not worth trying to show this. The start point is usually along the foot, leaving about 4 inches not attached, and progress clock wise around the sail back to about 2 inches short of the start. Splice the two ends together such that their final spice length fills the gap and attach by sewing.  Remember, the bolt rope is sewn to the port side of any sail!

 

On jib sails the bolt rope is tapered onto and off the leech of the sail! The bolt rope has to be well waxed, then unwound and the lays thinned whislst relaying the rope so that it has a fine taper. At 1/24 this length is about 2inches.

The yellow around the jib indicates the bolt rope area.

This is how the bolt rope is sewn on, a stitch through each lay.

And this is how an eyelet can be sewn into the bolt rope clew, head or tack.

 

And this is the bolt rope splice!

It lays along the foot of the sail.

Hope this helps, Kim.

 

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 10/05/2013 18:47:48

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Greetings Neil, without knowing what sails for what model I can only give you a general answer.

If required, the bolt rope forms a complete perimeter for the sail, this holds for any rectangular sail whether square or rhomboid. It also holds for top sails, spankers, drivers etc and for some staysails on big period ships.

The size of the bolt rope varies according to which part of the sail it is on. On a Thames barge the top rope is the biggest, the two side bolt ropes being lighter, and the bottom rope bigger than the sides but smaller than the top! All are spliced to each other.

For a model even at 1/12 it's probably not worth trying to show this. The start point is usually along the foot, leaving about 4 inches not attached, and progress clock wise around the sail back to about 2 inches short of the start. Splice the two ends together such that their final spice length fills the gap and attach by sewing.  Remember, the bolt rope is sewn to the port side of any sail!

 

On jib sails the bolt rope is tapered onto and off the leech of the sail! The bolt rope has to be well waxed, then unwound and the lays thinned whislst relaying the rope so that it has a fine taper. At 1/24 this length is about 2inches.

The yellow around the jib indicates the bolt rope area.

This is how the bolt rope is sewn on, a stitch through each lay.

And this is how an eyelet can be sewn into the bolt rope clew, head or tack.

 

And this is the bolt rope splice!

It lays along the foot of the sail.

Hope this helps, Kim.

 

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 10/05/2013 18:47:48

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Greetings Neil, without knowing what sails for what model I can only give you a general answer.

If required, the bolt rope forms a complete perimeter for the sail, this holds for any rectangular sail whether square or rhomboid. It also holds for top sails, spankers, drivers etc and for some staysails on big period ships.

The size of the bolt rope varies according to which part of the sail it is on. On a Thames barge the top rope is the biggest, the two side bolt ropes being lighter, and the bottom rope bigger than the sides but smaller than the top! All are spliced to each other.

For a model even at 1/12 it's probably not worth trying to show this. The start point is usually along the foot, leaving about 4 inches not attached, and progress clock wise around the sail back to about 2 inches short of the start. Splice the two ends together such that their final spice length fills the gap and attach by sewing.  Remember, the bolt rope is sewn to the port side of any sail!

 

On jib sails the bolt rope is tapered onto and off the leech of the sail! The bolt rope has to be well waxed, then unwound and the lays thinned whislst relaying the rope so that it has a fine taper. At 1/24 this length is about 2inches.

The yellow around the jib indicates the bolt rope area.

This is how the bolt rope is sewn on, a stitch through each lay.

And this is how an eyelet can be sewn into the bolt rope clew, head or tack.

 

And this is the bolt rope splice!

It lays along the foot of the sail.

Hope this helps, Kim.

 

Edited By Kimosubby Shipyards on 10/05/2013 18:47:48

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Neil,

forgot to add important advice

ensure that cloth for sails has been washed (pre-shrunk that is). If being dyed that'll take care of that.

AND most important, the bolt rope should be pre-shrunk too – I've made some howlars before only apparent when the sail got wet and cloth and bolt rope both reacted to the damp in separate ways.

As for bolt rope material, right hand laid, that's Z rope, and three ply. I use builders cotton brick chalk line, small (if you can get it), medium and large size, usually sold in units of 18m with 4 in a bunch.

Cheers, Kim

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Neil,

forgot to add important advice

ensure that cloth for sails has been washed (pre-shrunk that is). If being dyed that'll take care of that.

AND most important, the bolt rope should be pre-shrunk too – I've made some howlars before only apparent when the sail got wet and cloth and bolt rope both reacted to the damp in separate ways.

As for bolt rope material, right hand laid, that's Z rope, and three ply. I use builders cotton brick chalk line, small (if you can get it), medium and large size, usually sold in units of 18m with 4 in a bunch.

Cheers, Kim

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Neil,

forgot to add important advice

ensure that cloth for sails has been washed (pre-shrunk that is). If being dyed that'll take care of that.

AND most important, the bolt rope should be pre-shrunk too – I've made some howlars before only apparent when the sail got wet and cloth and bolt rope both reacted to the damp in separate ways.

As for bolt rope material, right hand laid, that's Z rope, and three ply. I use builders cotton brick chalk line, small (if you can get it), medium and large size, usually sold in units of 18m with 4 in a bunch.

Cheers, Kim

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Kim, that is magic………and thank you very much for all that info……..it really does help enormously…………i will be using lightweight calico stained and preshrunk, before stitching with Artesania scale rigging rope of 1'5 and 2.5mm three strand right hand laid,plus, as you have recommended builders chalk string that I picked up at a car boot a few weeks ago and the three sails, Main mizzen and fore sail are going onto my two 43' Watson class lifeboats………one being the 1894 fleetwood boat, the pulling/sailing Maude Pickup, and the other being the same Watson but as a motor sailor, the Donaghadee's 1910 c William and Laura

I have never mastered putting photos on here but you can find the build here…..

**LINK**

thanks again,

neil.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Kim, that is magic………and thank you very much for all that info……..it really does help enormously…………i will be using lightweight calico stained and preshrunk, before stitching with Artesania scale rigging rope of 1'5 and 2.5mm three strand right hand laid,plus, as you have recommended builders chalk string that I picked up at a car boot a few weeks ago and the three sails, Main mizzen and fore sail are going onto my two 43' Watson class lifeboats………one being the 1894 fleetwood boat, the pulling/sailing Maude Pickup, and the other being the same Watson but as a motor sailor, the Donaghadee's 1910 c William and Laura

I have never mastered putting photos on here but you can find the build here…..

**LINK**

thanks again,

neil.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Kim, that is magic………and thank you very much for all that info……..it really does help enormously…………i will be using lightweight calico stained and preshrunk, before stitching with Artesania scale rigging rope of 1'5 and 2.5mm three strand right hand laid,plus, as you have recommended builders chalk string that I picked up at a car boot a few weeks ago and the three sails, Main mizzen and fore sail are going onto my two 43' Watson class lifeboats………one being the 1894 fleetwood boat, the pulling/sailing Maude Pickup, and the other being the same Watson but as a motor sailor, the Donaghadee's 1910 c William and Laura

I have never mastered putting photos on here but you can find the build here…..

**LINK**

thanks again,

neil.

[Kimosubby ShipyardsParticipant @kimosubbyshipyards]

Neil,

always a pleasure to impart information and to one as knowlegeable as youself too.

Lifeboat sails are hard beasties, my attempts to get any drwaings for them proved fruitless when I approached HQ and Adrian Clutterbuck. Now there are very few people who remember them, we should record their memories before all are lost.

They were very heavily made too, as they were going to be used in extreme weather. Our retired mechanic remembers them on the Liverpool we had, though they were never used in anger, he said that the nearest he could describe them to me was "like being made as the old canvas drogue (which was on Oakleys and Rothers) with metal hawser, rope bound, reinforcing the clew, tack and head. It was almost that they were solid, the brown coating on them making them stiff as a board." "And heavy, you'd not want to handle them once wet!"

I've just registered with that other place, so will follow your build there as well.

Aye, Kim

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