Bowman

[Nigel MossParticipant @nigelmoss76896]

Hi

I am new to this forum and looking for some advice. We have an old steam boat which belonged to my farther in law. It has been stored for many years now. With lock down in place and looking for things to do decided to have another look at it. There are some images of the on line but not one exactly the same. Are there any experts out there who might know what we have. Also should it be left alone and just cleaned or renovated etc.

Grateful for any history and advice.

Couple of pictures included.

[Nigel MossParticipant @nigelmoss76896]

Old Steam Model – What to do with it?

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Hello Nigel and welcome to the forum.

Difficult decision. The brass parts could be dismantled, cleaned (perhaps but not polished) and made to work however it is unlikely the boat would survive any water contact given the age of the glue and paint.

Given it’s age and collectibility, a light clean is probably all you should do, realistically getting it working to be able to use again would ruin it’s intrinsic value.

However there are several schools of thought on this, and a full restoration to a seaworthy state would be nice….🤭

No doubt there will be strong views on this matter expressed here on the forum. As usual I would say that it is ultimately a personal decision only you can make and is also dependant on your desire to either keeping it or realising it’s value at auction or on EBay. 

Ashley

 

 

Edited By ashley needham on 08/02/2021 10:50:01

[Nigel MossParticipant @nigelmoss76896]

Hi Ashley

Many thanks for your comments and thoughts. I hope you have some experts who might know how old it is and how original, especially the colour as it looks overpainted.

Not sure what we will do with it but was surprised at some of the prices on Ebay. Would be nice if it went to somebody who would appreciate it.

Nigel

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Nigel. Those colours look about right to me, as does the crazing but I am not an old boat expert.

The way to check is to see if you can spot any other colours lurking underneath the crazed stuff.

Yes, they go for quite a bit.

Ashley

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Bottom line, decide on what “you” want to do with it. If you want to see it on the water and enjoy watching it sailing around the pond as it did when first manufactured then go for a full refurbishment. That would be a complete strip down, polish the metalwork, complete paint job, mechanical refurbishment and enjoy sailing it. There is a very real argument that you will have ruined its value but you will have years of enjoyment out of sailing it.

If however you want to realise the maximum value out of it then selling it as is would probably generate the best price, interfering in any way would open yourself up to criticism that it is no longer as original and give buyers the opportunity to try to push the price down.

Third option, as Ashley mentioned, a sympathetic clean up but not taking it to a seaworthy condition so you can enjoy looking at it on the shelf in its original condition.

If it was me, I fall fairly and squarely into the James May category. These things were made to enjoy operating and seen by all, not to hoard and sit on a shelf enjoyed by one. I would fully refurbish it and enjoy sailing it, happily giving up any of its value.

As an example the old Airfix P1127 Kestrel kit in the original bagging is generally regarded as being worth anywhere from £50.00 to £100.00. I bought one off eBay for around £20.00 so do I sell it to a collector and make a tidy profit? No, I ripped it out of its packaging where it has sat for around 50 years and enjoyed building it!

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Ok I will come clean.

I am with Richard. It was meant to be played with.

It is the same as seeing an instrument on the wall of a pub for me, a waste.

Ashley

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Posted by ashley needham on 13/02/2021 22:49:28:

Ok I will come clean.

I am with Richard. It was meant to be played with.

It is the same as seeing an instrument on the wall of a pub for me, a waste.

Ashley

Completely agree, they were not made as a decoration!

[Nigel MossParticipant @nigelmoss76896]

Richard and Ashley thanks for your replies. I cannot say that I am a model boat fan having been traumatised when I was very young by the sinking of a new boat on the Round Pond in London. I do like modelling generally so maybe its time to get over it and have a go with the Bowman.

I have done a bit more research this week and discovered via a Youtube clip that it is a Peggy Launch. Mine is exactly the same but has definitely been over painted many years ago. I am going to get it working again and give a sympathetic restoration and try to keep some of the age where I can. You are correct when you say it should be used as intended and I think my grandson will find steam more exciting than an iPad (might be wrong there).

I will post some pics when its finished and hopefully working.

PS Still interested to hear any history on these boats.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Nigel.given that the boat is a bit of a mess and has already been repainted, then a full refurb as suggested would not be ruining its originality as it has lost this already. The parts have not been messed about with so you can say it is original from this point of view.

By the time you have tried to sympathetically glue the cracks up and touched up the paint, and it’s likely it would need a coat of perhaps Matt varnish to seal the rest of it, well…

How many of these things have been restored? Do people buy them just for the sake of having one?

This sort of argument rages on in the old car and bike world!

Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Be careful about firing up that boiler though, it may be unsafe. It will need to be tested.

Colin

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Quite correct Ashley. The first thing 99% of owners do when they wheel a vehicle out of the showroom is to modify it. For bikes, it may be nothing more than changing to a preferred tyre brand or even just polishing a crankcase when the original is sand cast but changes start almost immediately. I have always believed that this “Not as per the original” tends to be more snobbish than anything. If you bought a bike with notoriously less than good brakes and when it came time to change the pads a better material had been developed wouldn’t you want to upgrade? To the purists you have now destroyed its originality! There is actually an expression rearing its head more and more nowadays known as “Over restoring!”, where apparently a restorer is taking a bike to a level that was never actually produced but which is far better in many ways than the showroom version. An example I saw recently was a 1920s BMW that had been fitted with highly polished stainless steel wrap around braiding on the cables. I can’t help but wonder whether some people have more money to spend than they know what to do with it.

I’m a fan of restorations that include modifications to enable you to enjoy the benefits of the original with modifications that make life so much easier. If I was doing your Bowman the hull would be cleaned up and glassed with a nice shiny new coat of paint and the internals would be polished up and made reliable. If the fitting of a bearing or bush here and there prolonged the life of the engine I would not hesitate to fit it. I might even be tempted to fit a steering servo but might accept that trying to determine the point on the opposite bank where the model might arrive was part of the enjoyment of the original so perhaps that might be a modification that would spoil the original charm.

Most of all, back to the same line, “Do what you want to do with it” and most of all enjoy operating it as it was originally intended.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Give the old girl a nice wash & brush up and leave her with the dignity of age and cracked paint and all, make a nice ornament on a hardwood stand ?

Regards Ray

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

I myself would completely strip, clean and repaint the model in as near to original paint colours as possible……..and by this take it to B n Q and have their paint department colour match the paint colours in their "yacht paint" paints, and brush paint the boat, as it would have been all those years ago……….to bring back some authenticity to the model.

if you look on book sales on the internet for; SCALE MODEL SHIPS, THEIR ENGINES AND CONSTRUCTION by BERNARD REEVE and P W THOMAS published 1951, it gives a fantastic insite into how models were built during those pre and post war times.

i was given a 1st edition by my grand dad who taught me the first rudaments and steps into model boat building and painting in 1959 for my birthday, and i still use it now and then for traditional members.

you would find it fascinating reading AND invaluable help in restoring your boat using traditional methods, rather than using rattle cans from Halfords. ..and good luck.

Scale Ship Models their Engines and Construction By Bernard Reeve & P.W.Thomas | Used | 1593503960DPB | Old & Rare at World of Books

Scale Model Ships.Their Engines and Construction.1951.Bernard Reeve.Hardback.1st | eBay

[redpmgParticipant @redpmg]

Have to disagree Ray – if Nigel can interest his grandson – who knows – the boat may well be still sailing 50 years from now as its part of a family heritage .

One of the saddest sights to me was the collection of model boats held at Beale Park – discarded and not used – steadily deteriorating – how much nicer it would have been to see them sailing there – instead they all ended up getting sold and what has happened to them then since ? – probably a lot got binned

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Neil, lovely book, thanks for the links, I couldn’t resist the eBay one!

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

mine is in one hell of a state after 61 years, but having been given to me all those years ago, i would like to have it restored by a book binder rather than buy one………but they are truly a great read…well done Richard……….i'm sure you'll enjoy it.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Peter,

Only trying to be practical really , I should say the steam plant re-dates Mamod by 50 years and the meths burners were replaced 40 years ago by solid fuel tablets, plenty of experience with meths alight, and you can't see it burning until the paint starts to blister

My youngest grandson is very wary of my live steam loco's, you won't get him putting cold on the fire !!

Regards Ray

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Scandalous the Beale park boats. I went ages ago and it struck me then that all the effort that went into them was being wasted on the shelf..it was almost a mausoleum rather than a vibrant shed full of models raring to go.

Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Quite agree Ashley. Richard Howard's intentions were noble but never really came off and after he died, the trustees just saw the collection as so much unwanted junk!

It does beg the question – just what do you do with unwanted model boats? The Beale Park collection was all in one place but it is happening all the time as families grapple with the question of what to do with their Dad's old boats. Only a relative few have true commercial value. Even Brian King's masterpieces went for comparitive peanuts at auction.

I'd like to think my Daughters would lilke to keep one each as mementos but not everyone has room for a model in their living room, particularly those which might not have immediate visual appeal. And unless the thing is in a glass case it will just attract dust..

The ancient Egyptians had the right idea, they put the models into their tombs and preserved them for 3,000 years.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 15/02/2021 18:22:57

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I had better cancel that cremation then….

Ashley

[redpmgParticipant @redpmg]

Could be like the Vikings though…………….along with your models. Take them with to Valhalla !

[redpmgParticipant @redpmg]

Meant to say you put your finger on the problem with the Beale Park boats Ashley – was what I meant. For all the good intentions the boats must have been in a poor condition when disposed of .

Picked up a small Mamod unit from a boot sale shortly before leaving UK Ray – the fellow disposing of it told me it was his as a kid and he was selling it as neither his kids or grandkids had any interest in it , When I told him that I intended to renovate and run it he was so happy he wanted to reduce the already low price . Its brass has been polished and the rest cleaned up and its been run many times since – last time only weeks ago – also runs on Meths without much of a problem so have not switched to tablets. Glad to say my son would like to have the Mamod so have promised to pass it on. Currently assembling a Q3 Mini Tug kit from China which he ordered for my grandson. Have to build a slightly different one for him to use together with his son. Hopefully at 40 something sons interest in model boats will continue and grandson will have an interest too. Also know that he would like my avatar Police Boat too so that at least is safe……………

Edited By redpmg on 16/02/2021 12:03:18

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Peter,

The Mamod engines were my generations introduction to steam, although all my family were model engineers so no shortage of engines to drive.

I have a Mamod traction engine bought at a boot fair for £30 in need of restoration one day.

Yes I'm going to have my 2 grandsons round after lockdown and ask them which models they would like me to keep for them ? I have a few personal favourites, but the tally stands at about 35 I think so I think there is some scope for selling a few.

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 16/02/2021 12:17:53

[redpmgParticipant @redpmg]

Hi Ray,

Mamods were very scarce where I grew up and as imported items were very expensive – strictly rich kid stuff. Have also had Cheddar, Stuart T & Wilesco marine units in the past but the baby Mamod is a joy. .

Running a Midwest Heritage gun metal engine but having trouble with finding a suitable boiler. – friend here into steam goes for Stuart Double Tens and Launch engines – current;y making a triple expansion unit – but he uses Yarrow type 3 tube boilers – so making a small one is sort of infra dig. Other friend makes small Mamod type engine & boiler – too small for the Heritage. Not a dab hand at silver soldering so making one is problematic. The mini boiler provided with the engine hardly raise enough steam to drive the engine at all…………

As I said before please don't give your boats away unless its to family members who ask for them specifically – maybe if paid for they may be looked after…………..

Regards

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