4-blade vs 5-blade

4-blade vs 5-blade

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  • #29038
    Queequeg Quint
    Participant
      @queequegquint38270
      My Ambassador is 35 inches long, about 12 inches wide, about a 5 inch draft.  Motor is MFA Como 850 with the 2.1:1 belt drive gear reduction.  Prop is 65mm 4-blade brass.  It is carrying a 12 volt, 12AH battery (very heavy).  Driving aggressively, she lasts for about one hour.  This boat is very heavy but is also very fast.  Here is a video to demonstrate:

       
      In this video, one of my lobster boats, the Illusion, is chasing the Ambassador
       
      In this video, you see the Ambassador (the red boat with a crane in it), racing around with two other 12-volt boats (the Illusion (MFA Como 800 direct driving a 55mm 4-blade brass prop) and the poor Orca (MFA Como 500, 2.5:1 gear reduction turning a 45mm brass prop)).  The Ambassador is the heaviest, the largest, and the fastest boats of these three. 
       
       
      MY QUESTION:  Do you think I can squeeze some more thrust out of the Ambassador (MFA 850, 2.1:1, 65mm, 4-blade prop), if I switch to a 5-blade prop, same diameter (I don’t have space for a larger diameter)?

       
       
      #2012
      Queequeg Quint
      Participant
        @queequegquint38270
        #29050
        Queequeg Quint
        Participant
          @queequegquint38270
          One more point: These three boats are all using the general purpose 4-blade brass props by Rivabo.  In this regard, for more thrust out of the Ambassador, the thought came to me that a higher pitch prop would do the trick.  But I’m a bit apprehensive about that. 

           
          On a level, I’d like to stick with the same kind of prop just for the sake of consitency with my other 2 boats.  A 5-blader would just add a bit of distinction to the Ambassador.  But what kind of performance effect would that have?
          #29053
          ashley needham
          Participant
            @ashleyneedham69188
            Q. U are a man after my own heart !   I have a feeling that this is a suck it and see situation. How does the pitch on the 4 bladers compare to a “standard” commercial 3 blade prop?? my feeling is the pitch may well be a bit shallower, being designed for looks on a scale model rather than general performance..
             
            It may be interesting to try a pitchier 3 blade prop…or even a plastic 2 blade “racing” type prop (as this will be relatively cheap)    A 5 blade prop in your size is going to be expensive in any case to experiment with. Also, and I may be wrong here, i think that the multi blade props are generally used to absorb power but keep the revs down… subs, for instance, or warships, that need to be a bit quiet under water.
             
            Also, I hope your hull will cope with more power, as displacement types start to dig in at the rear when more and more power is applied, rather than lifting bodily, or staying level, like a warship, and speed does not increase that much. But you could add some transom flaps afterwards to shift the c of g forwards and delay this.
             
            You hooligan!
             
            Ashley (not known on the pond for under-powering boats…)
             
             
            #53962
            Queequeg Quint
            Participant
              @queequegquint38270

              I did, indeed, switch to the 5-blade prop. My initial perception is: the boat gets up to speed quicker. It can stop quicker with reverse. It has lost a little bit of top-speed.

              The 5-blade prop looks beautiful on the Ambassador.

              #53963
              Queequeg Quint
              Participant
                @queequegquint38270

                5 blade on boat.jpg

                5 vs 4 blade.jpg

                #53981
                Malcolm Frary
                Participant
                  @malcolmfrary95515

                  If looking for performance, lose weight first*. If the prop is somewhere near, having less to shove will make it all go faster. Changing the prop has at least a 50-50 chance of actually making matters worse.

                  *Colin Chapman on creating performance – "Add more lightness"

                  #55089
                  Queequeg Quint
                  Participant
                    @queequegquint38270

                    I just went to an even bigger 5-blade prop on the Ambassador. 70mm now. I'm sure the MFA Como 850 2:1 can handle. Hopefully the driveline can cope!

                    70mm 5-blade prop

                    #55106
                    mike farrell
                    Participant
                      @mikefarrell21522

                      Now then Q Well made videos . and nice looking models but pray tell me why more speed for your models.

                      They are after all working boats not designed for speed

                      HOW did you get the video to post on the forum please Thanks Michaelwink

                      #55109
                      Queequeg Quint
                      Participant
                        @queequegquint38270

                        Hi Mike,

                        Well, I don't really need more speed. I just like to push every system to its limit. It's the hooligan in me!

                        To post Youtube videos to this forum, copy your embed code from your Youtube video. Then, when on this forum, as you are posting, click the "Youtube" button, then paste your code into that.

                        #55111
                        mike farrell
                        Participant
                          @mikefarrell21522

                          Hi Q Thanks for that ,hope to use it in the near future winkMichael

                          #55142
                          Mark Jarvis 2
                          Participant
                            @markjarvis2

                            HI Q

                            I have read what Ashley said and would say add lightness is better than more power, NiMh batteries or lipo's instead of lead acid's, lift the hull slightly out of the water (watchout for stability)

                            With a lighter hull what about direct drive from your 850, with a slightly smaller prop reving higher!!!!

                            Why not reverse the gearing 2-1 up, small prop goes like hell?????

                            Dont forget you will run into hydrodynamic problems, max hull speed through the water

                            Mark

                            #55150
                            ashley needham
                            Participant
                              @ashleyneedham69188

                              Q. Do not be put off by all this talk of "why". I say "why not" !! (as already stated)

                              A full width trim tab (shelf) at the back would likely assist in the performance stakes by stopping the rear sinking so much, although I do see that the back of the boats are square rather than rounded, which helps.

                              Trim tabs shift the effective centre of gravity forward a bit by lengthening the hull and are also useful in stopping cavitation, if full width.

                              yes, 5 blade props are the business.

                              Ashley

                              #55155
                              Queequeg Quint
                              Participant
                                @queequegquint38270

                                Thanks for the input. As I said, I like to push every system to the limit. So, I actually like more weight, more power etc.

                                70mm is the biggest prop I can fit on the Ambassador. If I could go bigger…. I would! I'm sure the 850 2:1 can handle everything. I just worry about the driveline couplings snapping, or the prop coming loose. One time I had the mighty Ambassador on a big river that had a very strong current. When I brought the boat home, I noticed the 65mm 4-blade prop actually had come loose! Even with the lock-tight, the torque of the motor and the resistance of the big prop started to loosen the prop! I've never had that happen before on any boat. If that prop fell off, the Ambassador would've ended up in the Atlantic Ocean somewhere. Now, with 5-blades and bigger size, I reckon there's more pressure on everything.

                                When I get a chance to run the Ambassador, I'll make some new videos.

                                #55161
                                ashley needham
                                Participant
                                  @ashleyneedham69188

                                  Q. What couplings are you using…you may need to use solid ball/socket ones for this sort of torque.

                                  Prop should NEVER come loose as the thread of the shaft should be screwing INTO the prop under normal rotation and just get tighter rather than looser???

                                  Ashley

                                  #55164
                                  Queequeg Quint
                                  Participant
                                    @queequegquint38270

                                    Ah! I didn't think about this issue…. The MFA 850 2:1 moves the prop in the opposite direction! You can see in the pics I have of my Ambassador and Illusion… it's a different-handed prop on each. That would explain why it came loose.

                                    I got my couplings from Cornwall Model Boats. The shaft is well-alinged, so I don't reckon I'll have trouble. But, I've never ran with so much pressure before….

                                    RH vs LH

                                    5 blade on Ambassador, next to Illusion

                                    Couplings…

                                    #55178
                                    Mark Jarvis 2
                                    Participant
                                      @markjarvis2

                                      HI Q

                                      If your prop is comming loose try a lock nut as well as Loctite/ nut locking fluid, make sure the threads are cleaned with an alcohol such as meths, before putting thread lock on both the shaft and the locknut.

                                      The U/J could be changed for the type the I/C racing boats use, Huco type couplings are sometimes out of balance and it looks like you have a double U/J that makes it even more out of balance.

                                      Mark

                                      #73065
                                      Queequeg Quint
                                      Participant
                                        @queequegquint38270

                                        I would like to give an update on my larger diameter 5-blade prop I added to my Ambassador. As I said before, it gets up to speed quicker than the 4-blade. Reverse can stop the speeding boat very quickly. That is impressive to see! It has lost a bit of top-speed, however.

                                        The downside is this: it seems to draw more current from the battery, draining the battery a bit more quickly than the 4-blade. I'm using the MFA 850 2:1 motor, if you remember.

                                        Is it true that the less blades you have the more efficient it is?

                                        #73072
                                        ashley needham
                                        Participant
                                          @ashleyneedham69188

                                          Q. Well done for updating us!!

                                          The question of efficiency is a bit complicated. It is horses for courses really. some configurations of prop are more efficient FOR THEIR INTEDED USE than others. One size does not fit all.

                                          ​Generally speaking for a model boat prop the more blades the greated overall prop area (for the same size) and so the more power will be needed to turn it. This will give a larger power consumption in amps.

                                          Multi blade props are best run large and slow (sorry, generalisation).

                                          ​I have had good results from X pitch 2-blade props being run relatively slowly. It may be that an X60 or 65 if you can get such a beast may be a bit more efficient for what you want (a bit of oomph). BUT who knows?? others will have different opinions.

                                          Ashley

                                          #73076
                                          Dave Milbourn
                                          Participant
                                            @davemilbourn48782

                                            Yep!

                                            I've found that 2-blade coarse pitch props (e.g. X props) not only consume more power than 3-blade finer pitch ones but induce more torque roll in single screw models. Consequently I don't use 2-blade props on any of my various Fairey models. As regards efficiency, Ashley is right – it depends on the application. After all if it was true universally then every cruise liner and every huge container carrier would use 2-blade props. They don't. Submarines use 7 blade scimitar props to keep down the prop noise.

                                            In general terms fine pitch props will accelerate the model faster than coarse pitch but the top speed will be less. Coming to think about it, I can't remember ever seeing a full-size boat with a 2-blade prop. Even those turbine-powered 3000HP unlimited hydroplanes use 16" three-blade props. Mind you, each prop costs $15,000!

                                            Dave M

                                            #73077
                                            Malcolm Frary
                                            Participant
                                              @malcolmfrary95515

                                              Bigger props, turning at the same rate, will shift more water than smaller ones, but will only move it the same distance in the same time. No more top speed, but better acceleration. The improved acceleration is paid for by increased power consumption during said acceleration. Putting the same power into a small prop will, if the motor can handle it, cause the prop to spin faster. This results in a longer column of water moving faster, which causes the boat to move faster but with less acceleration.

                                              The main benefit of a trim tab at the bottom of the transom is that once the speed has increased enough, the water flow around the stern is broken and drag is suddenly reduced. Even a square edge might not be as square as thought, allowing the water to flow round the corner and grip the transom. The plate of the tab prevents this as well as giving the stern a bit of extra lift.

                                              #73085
                                              Queequeg Quint
                                              Participant
                                                @queequegquint38270

                                                Here's the Ambassador running gloriously! Check out the prop-wash from that 5-blade 70mm Rivabo brass prop.

                                                21392627_10154824796056911_2006130988_o-1.jpg

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