Confused on motors for Fairey Huntsman

Confused on motors for Fairey Huntsman

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  • #34257
    Nige
    Participant
      @nige

      Hi, new member and new to model boats … well I had a good go in my teens concentrating on a grp based Fairey Huntsman, but I lost the interest.>>

      I've rekindled my interest in model boats and have acquired a second hand unfinished Huntsman kit based on a wooden hull. Having more financial input behind me than when I was a teen I am looking to build it as best as I can and try and stick to the original design of the real boat.>>

      My earlier boat ran twin screws and motors with a homemade speed controller and some pretty decent sized batteries. Things have moved on since then with microprocessor based controllers that can move decent amps and brushless motors.>>

      Again, I would like to run the new boat as twin screw and plan on using a mixer unit to control the direction/speed of the boat.>>

      Now my question is I have spent the past 3 evenings looking for the best motors to put in for the job, ones that will get the hull up on its plane. I keep going towards brushless motors but I then find I have no idea what KV rating I require … my early instincts are that these motors are for speed … would that be correct?>>

      Can anyone kick me off in the right direction on what to select please? On the prop front I was going to start with a couple of 3.5 to 4mm 3 blade and see how it goes.>>

      Any help would be gratefully appreciated.>>

      Thanks

      Nige>>

      #5173
      Nige
      Participant
        @nige
        #34259
        ashley needham
        Participant
          @ashleyneedham69188

          Nige. What size of huntsman is this?? loads of chaps must have built this model in the past and not so past, so one would thin k that their would be plethora of replies on this subject, but there again..

          You presumable have shafts fitted, and they are metric?

          Ashley

          #34263
          Nige
          Participant
            @nige

            Thanks Ashley. The boat is 47" long and it currently has a single shaft from the previous builder which I will be removing, no idea if it is metric at this point.

            I've googled a few queries and from what I have seen is that at least one modeller has used two Graupner 600 motors for a setup of a similar sized boat. I understand these are not brushless.

            Looking at the price of them I might use these as a starting point and see how it goes.

            Another question I have is that one of the original Faireys in real life used twin rudder, is this something comenplace on building a model and will it benefit the boat?

            Many thanks

            #34264
            ashley needham
            Participant
              @ashleyneedham69188

              NLL. If you dont want to mess about too much, I would leave the setup as a single shaft, much easier and cheaper to power than a twin.

              I was going to suggest two 600`s but on reflection this may be a bit underpowered, depending on the type of 600 (there are half a dozen varieties out there).

              For a single shaft something meaty would be required, the Graupner 700 or similar types find favour with others, running 12v or more. For planing you will want a fairly powerful beast

              My MFA Fantome is of a similar size and has a good performance from a pair of MFA800 motors (total about 140 watts) on 12v Nimh pack. Performance would be sparkling if I dropped a pair of 850`s in, straight swap. See picture, this is on a 12v Gel battery, goes a lot better with a Nimh battery of 1/3 the weight!

              MFA Fantome at full chat

              You could go brushless,but there does not appear to be a lot of expertise out there for this sort of situation. They are mostly used for very fast applications, hydros etc, or where small size is critical, neither of which apply to your boat..it only needs to be reasonably fast and there is not a significant lack of room…

              Brushless motors are specified by their rev/volt figure, and then what sort of current they could be expected to draw. For a, say, 40mm prop I dont suppose you would want to rev above (and I am talking off the top of my head here) say 15,000 RPM, and so one might calculate the motor spec from this, but only if you have decided on the battery voltage first.

              Ashley

              #34296
              Gareth Jones
              Participant
                @garethjones79649

                Nige,

                Based on my experience with an Elco PT boat model, 40 inches long and weighing 14 lb, I would suggest a pair of Graupner Speed 700 motors, part number 7307, driving 30 or 35 mm 3 bladed propellers and supplied from 9.6 volt NiMh batteries. If there is sufficient space I would use a pair of batteries, one for each motor. Each motor will take around 20-22 amps with this system set up. To get the maximum running time you obviously need to fit the largest capacity batteries you can accommodate (or afford).

                If you wanted to go higher tech and power, but lighter weight, you could fit 3 cell, 11.1 volt LiPo batteries but you need a compatible charger and speed controller. Its one of those tempting trade offs between cost and performance. Dont be put off by the horror stories of LiPo batteries exploding or catching fire, provided that you charge them correctly and dont discharge them below the minimum recommended voltage they are quite safe.

                #34297
                Dave Milbourn
                Participant
                  @davemilbourn48782

                  My advice would be one single Speed 900 running on 18-24v with a 3-blade 50mm prop. Setting up a Huntsman with twin shafts isn't as easy as you might imagine. Don't even think about using sealed lead-acid batteries – they are far too heavy.
                  Incidentally it's 40 years this month since I first put pencil to paper for this kit. I have to say that it's not dated anything like as much as its designer!
                  Dave M

                  #34300
                  Paul T
                  Participant
                    @pault84577

                    Dare I suggest a nice pair of matched nitros after all I'm sure the designer intended the boat to be IC powered!

                    Paul

                    Happy returns Dave I still get lots of fun out of my 47 (and 36) Huntsman, I remember saving up my pocket money to buy my first one.

                    #34305
                    ashley needham
                    Participant
                      @ashleyneedham69188

                      Hmm… 40 years ago, I would have thought that 30 yards of best rubber band and a home made 70mm prop is what the designer had in mind?

                      Nige,, .

                      I might suggest that there is no RIGHT choice of motor/battery/prop combination,and if there are more posters, they no doubt will offer any number of variations on the theme of motor choice.All valid, all offering some advantage of other.

                      I rather fancy the wallet approach in this matter (being tight), and unless you are bent on the very best performance possible then Daves approach may be the best especially as you already have only the one shaft fitted.. Bog standard sort of motor, nothing fancy , and a 24v Nimh pack (or whatever) , results guaranted.

                      And that is not to say anybody elses suggestions are worse, or better for that matter.

                      Dave, would one want water cooling with this setup??

                      Ashley

                      #34311
                      Nige
                      Participant
                        @nige

                        Thanks all for the advice so far. I've moved on a bit before the post was updated, buying wot nots and such for the boat … so my recent activity was not against the advice here.

                        I am keen to keep the build near to the real life setup as possible and really would like to stick to it where possible, but obvously avoiding going against practicality … money should not be an issue.

                        I've purchased 2 x Graupner 900 motors, 50mm 3 blade props and had decided to try on 12v to begin with … making this a learning experience with scope for change.

                        Thanks for you reply Dave, a pleasure to speak to the orginal designer of this boat, you have no idea how much joy it gave me when I was younger. I've left some contact details during the week to purchase a mixer from you, look forward to speaking to you.

                        Ashely, again thanks for you advice.

                        IC not an option I'm afraid. One of the reasons apart from personal ones is the initial public outing (time willing) does not allow IC engines on the lake.

                        I look forward (or maybe not) to any comments on my idea above … go easy and remember I am putting in scope for change if required.

                        Nige

                        #34313
                        Dave Milbourn
                        Participant
                          @davemilbourn48782

                          Thank you for the various comments, you old geezers.
                          The original did have IC power, Paul – one of the first HP61F R/C Marine motors in the UK, and probably the first with Schneurle porting and that magic 1BHP figure. I originally fitted the aero silencer but good ole Len Hooley of Ripmax had just commissioned a batch of proper brass marine silencers and so one of those was substituted. The 47" model was powerful enough to haul John Rudd and I around in tow in a 12' dinghy. Happy days.
                          Ash
                          Never mind rubber bands., m'lad! Water-cooling may be necessary for the motors if you run them on 24v+.

                          Dave M

                          #34314
                          Paul T
                          Participant
                            @pault84577

                            Happy days indeed before the busy bodies decided to spoil everyone's fun.

                            Old geezer?

                            I would think that pumped rather than forced water cooling would be needed running at 24v given the size and weight of the hull the current draw would be high.

                            Paul

                            #34322
                            Dave Milbourn
                            Participant
                              @davemilbourn48782

                              Not in the experience of a few customers who run such set-ups. A few turns of brake-pipe coiled around the motor seem to be enough, with the usual scoop and outlet connected with silicon tubing etc.The Speed 900 is a very efficient brushed motor and on 24v does not draw a huge current as long as you choose the right prop.
                              I would have suggested an X50 or X55 2-blade racing prop but Alan 'Barzo' Barwick's experience with a 3-bladed type is very interesting. I also originally fitted a 2-blade plastic prop to my prototype Shamrock and, against my (then) better judgement, replaced it at Prop Shop's suggestion with a 3-blade scale type. The model was just as quick, sat better in the water and ran for over twice as long on the same pack. QED.

                              Dave M

                              #34329
                              Paul T
                              Participant
                                @pault84577

                                Hi Dave

                                I bow to you and your customers experience, I would just be worried about a heat build up in the motors when the model is still after a hard run.

                                Paul

                                #34335
                                ashley needham
                                Participant
                                  @ashleyneedham69188

                                  Dave, that is very interesting, I have been told by more than one persons that the X series of props, although fine for most fast applications, is inefficient at slow speeds and so eats the amps, and I am guessing a Huntsman (or whatever) spends perhaps more time cruising past the admirers or going at half throttle..rather than a performance boat which would be run almost flat out everywhere (as it would be a bit boring otherwise!).

                                  Certainly, there was no performance difference on the Fantome when I changed to 3 blade brass..although possibly the 800 motors dont spin x props fast enough to start with.On the other hand, my victorian topedo boat & TBD run just as well with brass props as small X or S pitch ones, and they both use speed 400`s wich are revvy little things.

                                  I think that flat out, and on a "fast" hull you need an X prop, but other than that, a "normal" one will suffice.?

                                  Ashley

                                  #34346
                                  Dave Milbourn
                                  Participant
                                    @davemilbourn48782

                                    The HP61F R/C was a very powerful beast for its day. I reckon it was going at about 17000RPM at full chat and there was nothing you could use to slow it down except the throttle. Electric motors – certainly the brushed types we all play with – are nothing like as efficient as a big 2-stroke mill. I gather that some of the current crop of CMB 65 nitro-motors are churning out over 7BHP on tuned pipes – truly awesome figures for a motor of 11cc! The X props were originally made for racing IC engines and have a large pitch; the S series are less pitchy.

                                    The alternative to chucking a hunk of water backwards at very high speed is to chuck a bigger hunk back at a slower speed. This is perhaps why we find lower-pitch 3 and 4 blade props are at least as quick as their X rated colleagues (apart from in pure racing models where ritual abuse of motors, batteries and speed controllers is the order of the day!). The lower pitch means that they have less work to do in pushing the water aside and presumably that's why they draw less current and last longer. But what the heck do I know? Try one out on your model and see if I'm right.

                                    Dave M

                                    #37572
                                    Chris Sims 1
                                    Participant
                                      @chrissims1

                                      Hello

                                      I have just started building a Huntsman 31, does anyone know where i can get a plan for the location of the battery and engine

                                      #42195
                                      Nige
                                      Participant
                                        @nige

                                        Sorry guys, I let this post slowly die! I got part way through the project and a new project reared its head (rally car build) >>

                                        Thought I'd post where I got to as I plan to pick it up again in the next couple of weeks>>

                                        A few pics of the build up to last year after speaking with everyone:

                                        >imag0063.jpg>

                                        imag0064.jpg

                                        imag0065.jpg

                                        imag0046.jpg

                                        imag0052.jpg

                                        A short grainy video of its maiden voyage, please ignore the state of the hull … this was on 24v>>

                                        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvOMlosMWsI&feature=youtu.be

                                        Hope to start updating again soon.

                                        Nige

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