Small Topsail schooner

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Thanks for replies,

There was no reason why it should turn over. The hull was actually a bit deeper than the model, but I finished it off with a flat bottom simply to make it easier to built. Most of the yellow will be under water when it goes in the sea. The hull was 70.3 feet long and 17.9 feet wide, so its beam/length ratio was almost 4 to 1. In other words it was "short and fat.! The mainmast was nowhere near the length of the hull. The wooden masts, spar and rigging din not ewigh much, when compared to the hull. I have build plank on frame models of these ships abou a foot long, and they do sail very well with only internal ballast. I have even sailed ones as small as this model in a small garden pond using a fan as the wind source.

Looked at from the side, merchant sailing ships always looked long and thin, but they were very deep and had broad beams and that is what made them stay upright.

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

No you can't Ashley because when scaling down, the sail area reduces by the square root (area) and the hull volume by the cube root (volume) so the relative proportions change with the hull becoming too small to support the rig.

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Just as an experiment, I took a block of wood and cut it out to the length, breadth and depth of the schooner, and fitted it with two masts of the correct height. As you can see, it floats OK up to about what would have been its load waterline! As the block is solid, this might approximately equate to a fully loaded hull. But in actual practice, the weight would have been lower down, so it would have been even more stable. Also, the masts in this mock-up are far too thick. So you can see, they were perfectly stable. If I had made this hollow, and put a bit of ballast in it, and added sails, it would indeed have sailed in the light airs of a fan. Have done it many times with those old plastic sailing ship kits that were about five inches long! But they only sail in very light airs!

Bob

Edited By Bob Wilson on 15/01/2018 12:17:57

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

This is not my model! 50 years ago, my ship was stuck in Antwerp for a few days, with no passengers and only a skeleton staff. The most interesting thing around was a huge lake on the side of the the dock. One of my colleagues had build this model of the brigantine Leon, plank on frame. We fitted it with paper topsails and sailed it successfuly on a number of occasions with only internal ballast and it would run before the wind, and even on a tack. Eventually, we put it in when it was a bit too rough and it took water on deck. The main hatch was only a push fit, and it came off, resulting in the ship sinking. Next day, it was bright sunshine and the water was so clear we could see the glint of the sails on the bottom. We recovered the wreck fairly easily with a ball of string and a small grapple

Then we went back to Southampton, picked up 5 or 6 hundred passengers and sailed off to Cape Town aboard the good ship S A Oranje (ex RMS Pretoria Castle). We were diverted to Antwerp because of a dock strike, and discharged cargo in Antwerp. There were only 22 of us on that great big ship – very eerie – happy days!

Edited By Bob Wilson on 15/01/2018 12:30:41

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, that is the problem, scaling down means that the model can only cope with light airs (which, to be fair, are probaly scaled down normal wind conditions). If you want to sail your model in actual normal sailing conditions then it needs a keel to stand up to the wind. This is the issue I have with my Revell QM2 conversion, it will sit happily in the bath and shows no sign of turning over but it is very susceptible to the slightest pressure on the high superstructure which mens that without a keel it will roll drunkenly around the pond which isn't very realistic!

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

So Robert / Colin…….Working back the other way……

In the real world, what strength of wind would overturn the full size ship, with full sails?

I would guess…….100 mph?

Food for thought?

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Colin. Thanks for that. I knew there must be a clever reason why small boats need a keel.

​The boats I have built that are "proper" boats have all been made a bit deeper than they should be to ensure stability (unless they are fat things)….thus the Titanic, Nelson, Argus, Invincible and so on sail very well even in quite arduous conditions.

​That said, if you are a purist you would want the correct dimensions and suffer accordingly. The QM2 is of course ready built (the hull moulding) so theres nowt that can be done really. Perhaps slightly oversize bilge keels and a water tube roll-damper on the QM2 might help?? Conversely have the ballast as a lead or whatever strip along the centreline underneath the hull, to ensure max stability, and this would probably not be seen.

​Ashley

Edited By ashley needham on 15/01/2018 15:13:58

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

If the wind was blowing at 100 mph, they would have taken in most of the sails long before it got to that severity. If, for some obscure reason, they did not take the sails in, they would split and blow away. It was mainly other factors that caused the loss of sailing ships such as collision, ice, pooping (taking a heavy sea over the stern which smashed the wheel, or washed the helmsman away! or broaching to ( bad steering getting the ship beam on to the wind.

It doesn't take much bad weather to sink a boat at the best of times! Titanic, Nelson, Argus, Invincible, however, were ships, (not boats) and could normally be expected to survive any weather conditions if properly handled, (even if not properly handled), but as we know, the Titanic was unfortunate enough to blunder into an iceberg that ripped a hole in it!

Bob

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I put it in the sea today. Only thing that needs to be done now is to make the nameplates and put them on.

Bob

Edited By Bob Wilson on 17/01/2018 13:11:18

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Very nice, Bob

The sea looks very realistic

Are there any problems painting Plasticine, being a bit oily?

Bob

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Bob,

There was no trouble painting Plasticine, despite its oiliness. But I stopped using Plasticine some years ago because its quality is not as good as it once was, and it was getting harder to find in big bars! The sea above is polystyrene foam of the soft, crumbly type that they use to pack electrical equipment in. It is shaped with a gas blowtorch with the air intake turned off, so that the flame is only as strong as a candle flame. Then, to give it a painting surface, I stick a sheet of crepe paper on top with white wood glue. I use crepe paper because it stretches and can be pushed into the hollows. Then I spray it with grey matt primer from halford's. My wife then paints the sea using Humbrol enamels.

Bob

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Bob W.

As always when it is you, a beautiful build of a beautiful ship – I take my hat of to both model and builder!

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 17/01/2018 16:26:07

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