best smoke simulator ?

This topic is empty.

Viewing 25 posts - 1 through 25 (of 26 total)

1 2 →

Author

Posts
20 December 2010 at 22:03 #29253
Red Ken
Participant
@redken
Hi all.

I am considering fitting some kind of smoke maker in my scratch built harbour tug which runs on 7.2 volts and is 32″ from stem to stern.

I have heared of 2 types, one is a heater system which ‘cooks’ oil for the effect, the other makes a water vapour.

Does anyone have any comments about which is best / most convenient to use?

I look forward to your learned comments.

Regards, Ken.
Advert

20 December 2010 at 22:03 #5099
Red Ken
Participant
@redken
20 December 2010 at 23:20 #29254
neil hp
Participant
@neilhp
hi, i have seen both types working, the oil burning type use either 6 or 12 volts and seem to be sensitive to using those exact voltages., or they can fail.also they put out very low amounts of smoke which in mho look very unrealistic or you have the water vapour type which operate via speed controller and the amount of output is comensurate with the speed of motors, but the big drawback with these is that they need 24 volts to operate them at present times.

you takes yer pick and makes yer choice.

neil.

Edited By neil howard-pritchard on 20/12/2010 23:22:04
21 December 2010 at 00:11 #29255
Richard Simpson
Moderator
@richardsimpson88330
Hi Ken, I have both in my boats and can confirm what Neil says. The oil burners also use rather a lot of power to heat up the element and I’m really not a great fan of having hot oil and a heated element inside one of my boats.

The water vapour generators are much more effective, don’t use heat but do require 24v to drive the nebuliser. This means either a 24v battery or an electronic device which can generate it for you, which may be determined by the hull space you have available. To keep it going you simply stick a bit more water down thr funnel when it stops generating vapour.

I’m a great fan of the vapour generating type as they are much more effective, use less power and are safer.
21 December 2010 at 09:11 #29257
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Our S3 Seuthe smoke unit (oil-burner) runs from 8v-14v and draws 700mA. This isn’t a lot of power but it wouldn’t help with motor running times if you were to operate it from the same battery as the main drive. If you install it with our P68S Fan Controller then you can increase the volume of smoke as the drive motor speeds up.

The smaller S1 units will run on 7.2v (with a series 1A diode) but they produce relatively little smoke – they are intended to be fitted to small locomotives and they actually “chuff-chuff”. http://www.action-electronics.co.uk/pdfs/SMOKERS.pdf I had one fitted in my 1/72 Puffer and it worked a treat.

We have a DC-DC converter which is adjustable in output voltage and is compact enough to fit into a relatively small model (approx 35mm cube). It’s not listed as we have only just acquired a few samples. Unfortunately the water-vapour units which are available e.g. MMB aren’t very compact. http://marksmodelbits.ieasysite.com/ecommerce_002.htm Vapour-based units are also practically useless in hot or humid climates such as Australia.

IMHO the very best unit is made and sold by Harbor Models in San Diego, CA, but it’s a hundred bucks and requires a seperate forward-only ESC if you want to vary the amount of smoke http://www.harbormodels.com/site08/main_pages/smoker.htm

Hope this helps; like NHP says, you pays your money etc.

Dave M
21 December 2010 at 12:04 #29260
Telstar
Participant
@telstar
Hi Ken, The above posts just about says it all. Like others I have used both types of smoke generator, one of the main considerations I found is the type of boat it is used on. I have a basic oil burner (no fan etc) in a model of a diesel powered trawler, a bad choice, it had to have its own battery, or running time was limited, and when running the exhaust(funnle) looked more like the galley stove chimney. I had to modify it with a fan assist to improve the effect. My original water vapour unit was/is a ‘Old Smokey’ (not available now I believe) it is a good concept, I run it from my 12V main battery, (no extra 24v orsuch) the exhaust (smoke) changes with engine speed, and stops with engine shut down. However one point not mentioned often is; the xtal/membrane in the nebulizer head (the bit that makes the vapour) does wear and needs to be replaced after a period. In full time use ie. several hours daily (medical use of nebulizers) the head needs to be refurbished about every 18 monthes, so for occasional use in hobbies it should be much longer. Also it is best to use distilled water since any disolved solids in the water, scale or chalk in hard water areas will cause higher wear rates.

merry christmas (including Dave)

Tom
23 December 2010 at 21:43 #29278
Red Ken
Participant
@redken
First of all I would like to thank the 4 gentlemen who have offered their advice which answers all my questions very fully.

I like the idea of the water vapour via a nebulizer, has anyone tried food colouring in the water supply, not so much as having a ship putting out ‘green smoke’ but with the idea of using a black colourant.

Regards and a merry Christmas to all.

Ken
24 December 2010 at 09:03 #29279
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
The manual for the MMB unit states very clearly that doing this will a) not work; b) gum up the unit, and c) invalidate the guarantee.

I think you’ll find that ‘steam’ is always white anyway

Dave M
24 December 2010 at 19:04 #29285
Telstar
Participant
@telstar
Hi Ken I did try black coffee once, had to dismantle the head and clean it of gunk!

Dave; ships don”t normally emit steam from the funnel its usually smoke from the boilers or exhaust from the diesels The steam from the engins is usually condensed and recycled to the boilers again

Merry Xmas to all modellers

Tom
24 December 2010 at 21:09 #29286
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Good point, Tom – but we both know that vapour-based model “smoke” generators don’t emit real smoke – it’s water vapour, or ‘steam’ in simple terms.

Dave
24 December 2010 at 22:28 #29287
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
I know it looks authentic on a model but real ships don’t actually emit much smoke when running normally. Diesels can send up clouds of black smoke when they are started and steamships if the fires are not properly trimmed. The old warships of WW1 would emit large amounts of smoke when the powerplant was beingt run flat out such as at Jutland but generally smoke represents unburnt fuel which costs so it is kept to an absolute minimum by the engineer on duty. On the old steam powered liners the Chief Engineer would get a reprimand from the Captain if the funnels were emitting smoke!

Colin
26 December 2010 at 09:31 #29291
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Colin

There are surely some ships which do emit smoke all the time, even if only a little e.g. Clyde puffers. At the same time I do often wonder about people who ask for a smoke generator for something like an Aziz. My favourites, however, were the chap who wanted an engine sound for his Bismarck and the other who asked for a Titanic engine sound – and how many request multiple diesel engines for Perkasa!

Takes all sorts, I suppose.

Dave M
26 December 2010 at 09:46 #29292
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
I fancied a smoke generator for my Titanic but I didnt see that there were any available that generated sufficient for the purpose…ie lots and out of three funnels.

Similarly nice thick black 30 boiler smoke for my victorian battleship.

A little wisp from a tug is acceptable…but my view on smoke is the same as sounds, previously aired (not a fan of in most applications)

However…Dave…could you do some “glasses tinkling in the first class saloon” sounds for me big T ???

Ashley.

PS I did find one great source of smoke and steam yesterday, need quite a big boat to fit our oven in, mind you.
26 December 2010 at 11:09 #29295
Robin Lee
Participant
@robinlee31938
The d.i.y system using theatrical “fog” fluid found on this link looks promising with masses of white vapour. The warship depicted used to be frequently seen at Southend and the Essex show at Barleylands and is very impressive.

http://wmunderway.8m.com/cont/smoke/smoke.htm
26 December 2010 at 13:00 #29297
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
However…Dave…could you do some “glasses tinkling in the first class saloon” sounds for me big T ???

No problem, Ashley – but it’ll cost you about £115 for the kit to play the sound back and £2K each to buy the cruise tickets for Liz and I to record it. We do take VISA, Mastercard and Pay Pal………

Dave M
26 December 2010 at 17:36 #29302
Telstar
Participant
@telstar
Some years ago a member of an Edinburgh model club did sail an aircraft carrier with the ‘Royal Marines band’ on the flight deck playing a medley of martial tunes, Perhaps that will ring Ashley’s bell.

Myself I don’t like mannequins on working boats, although a ‘driver’ in open cockpits can add to some models, a doll frozen in the act of coiling a rope on a lifeboat while it is running at full throttle through a choppy sea does nothing for me.

Any sounds, lights smoke etc should be ‘in scale’ with the model they’re fitted to, noisy models are unnecessary and antisocial.

I have had to remove the photo as the surrounding ‘framework’ was interfering with the page layout. You could post the picture separately as a one off from an album and/or simply post the link.

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 28/12/2010 11:19:25
28 December 2010 at 11:07 #29306
Richard Simpson
Moderator
@richardsimpson88330
Just one other point to mention here about colouring the smoke from a nebuliser.

As the vapour is not generated by heat it is actually a cold vapour and so is heavier than air. If your model is moving the vapours trail behind and get carried away by the wind but as soon as you stop the model in very still air the vapour can actually fall ointo the model. If you add a dye to the vapour generator it can then start to stain your model as the vapours condense on your superstructure.

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 28/12/2010 11:14:58
25 June 2017 at 11:28 #71568
Max Cormick
Participant
@maxcormick
hi guys,

I would like to add smoke to both funnels of my DD fletcher 1/125 linberg

The remaining space is height 40mm length11mm width 50mm
And I have a battery pack of 6 volt x 4500mA.

I have seen that many smoke generators work at 12 or 24 volts but i have everything working at 6v

I have read that many "homemade" smoke generators use a ceramic resistance of 10 ohms 10 watts using 12 volts
If you wanted to use a 6 volt battery instead of 12 volt the resistance should be ….. ???

Do I have to give up or is there a solution?

regards

Cobber
25 June 2017 at 14:09 #71570
Dodgy Geezer 1
Participant
@dodgygeezer1
I did a bit of experimenting with home-made 'oil-burner' smoke generators some time ago. The oil doesn't actually burn, of course – it is just vaporised by a heater and then condensed as a white smoke in the air.

I found that 6v is really not enough to get good results. And that the amount of smoke is critically dependent on getting the air draught correct. Not enough air means not enough condensation – too much air cools down the heater which is vaporising the oil…
25 June 2017 at 20:05 #71587
Malcolm Frary
Participant
@malcolmfrary95515
I have read that many "homemade" smoke generators use a ceramic resistance of 10 ohms 10 watts using 12 volts
If you wanted to use a 6 volt battery instead of 12 volt the resistance should be ….. ???

10 ohms off 12 volts runs at 1 amp (near enough) and gives 10 watts (again, near enough)

10 watts (for the same heat generation) off 6 volts needs 2 amps. I=V/R, so about 3 ohms. Just basic Ohms law.

If using a hot resistor inside a plastic boat, make sure that there is good heat reflecting material between heat and plastic. Especially if space is restricted. Don't ask.
27 June 2017 at 08:38 #71603
Max Cormick
Participant
@maxcormick
thank you so much,

I realized that for the model sizes it is not possible to mount a smoke generator

I saw Small-Scale Smoker – 6 Volt

and I would like to use it for my new model: 1//200 trumpeter Bismarck; there are trouble with plastic material or not?

regards

Cobby
27 June 2017 at 09:19 #71604
Malcolm Frary
Participant
@malcolmfrary95515
A commercial one probably has the bugs ironed out and probably doesn't use a common commercially available power resistor but a much less bulky custom element. As a result, stopping heat getting to where it is not wanted is less of a problem. Unrestrained heat being radiated can soften plastic. Ducting the smoke to the point of exit is a good idea – it reduces the chance of condensing oil going wherever it will inside the model.

10 watt resistors tend to be large items in a small model, but an element directly heating a wick generates heat where it is wanted while leaving enough space to arrange thermal protection. The fan forcing airflow helps as well.

Another problem using resistors – the manufacturers intend them to run at temperatures well below what we want to vaporize oil and only supply information to that end. As a result, a lot of guesswork is involved finding a suitable one to run economically and survive our use. Short lengths of dead electric fire element might do the job using something like woven fireproof insulating sleeving (electricians department, DIY store) as a wick.
27 June 2017 at 09:31 #71606
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
These people make smoke units for model locos. We used to sell the 6v type 1 which fits inside the funnel and is filled from the top with a syringe. There may be others more suitable. **LINK**

Dave M
27 June 2017 at 09:53 #71607
Dodgy Geezer 1
Participant
@dodgygeezer1
Electric fire element is a bit too bulky for small DIY installations – I found that the best (and easiest to obtain) material was nichrome wire from broken electric hair-dryer elements. That's usually thin enough to wind tightly around something like fireproof sleeving – I used that with a thin roll of fibreglass loft insulation inside.

The problem with 6v (and 7.2v) is that you need to get the oil hot enough to vaporise, then cool enough to condense rapidly, and with low power it is hard to get enough heat into the system to generate the required volume of smoke reliably. You can get a small amount out, but you need a solid mass to see it on a typical boating pond at distance – even in windless conditions. The heat-flow problem is rather similar to that faced by Watt with his early steam engine (and yes, I have tried a separate condenser!)…

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 27/06/2017 09:56:40
25 July 2017 at 17:46 #72082
Max Cormick
Participant
@maxcormick
I found http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=SEUTHE%20NO5&r=1

is it ok for a warship like Bismarck 1/200?

regards

Cobby
Author

Posts