Adhesives

Adhesives

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  • #78457
    S M
    Participant
      @sm83187

      While trawling the forums I have seen plenty about epoxy, GRP resin, and cyano for modelling and to date I have seen little about expanding PU glues which is a little surprising as I have used this for many years, particularly as I get it from site for free which is a bonus.

      Expanding polyurethane glues have sone considerable advantages for marine modelling as they come in many differing types and their one common denominator is they are all moisture activated and can be used on wet or moist timber, and their expanding properties mean they often give a greater bond strength than the rapid epoxies many people use. This expanding property means they fill any tiny gaps as they expand to harden and this 100% contact area means it also prevents the ingress of moisture and fuels into joints which are less then perfect, so how do they work.

      Expanding PU glues come in a range of curing times from 5 minutes to overnight and if you apply them to dry joints it means you have a reasonable working time to adjust or move joints around before you activate them, so how do we activate them? Basically you add water, this starts the expansion and curing process and many people do this by using a small plant sprayer and give the joint a quick blast to begin the curing process.

      Expanding means it has gap filling properties and for through the hull fittings such as propellor shafts it is an ideal adhesive as it bonds and fills any remaining gaps which could leak and as it is a PU glue it han be readily trimmed or shaped using standard modelling tools. If more gap filling is required you can let your first layer expand slightly and add an additional layer or two as the expanding process of the first layer will begin the activation of additional layers, and the fact it uses water or airborne moisture to activate it means it is a good waterside adhesive to keep in the spares box.

      #4518
      S M
      Participant
        @sm83187

        PU

        #78505
        Martin Field 1
        Participant
          @martinfield1

          I hate the stuff. It is impossible to get off your clothes (but, to be fair, so is superglue), it is difficult indeed to get off your hands and worst of all I found it didn't stick that well. I made a cabin slide for my historic canal boat and by the time the thing had moved over here it was already falling apart. The glue had simply not held at all. The layers which make up a slide if made properly fell apart and then the remaining foam fell off the wood it had decided to stay on. I had the same problem with a carry case I made for a model using the much vaunted Gorilla glue. I will say the odd brush equipped Gorilla superglue does work well, but the brush soon goes out of shape and goes stiff.

          I find aliphatic is the best wood glue.

           

          Martin

          Edited By Martin Field 1 on 17/08/2018 22:42:17

          #78509
          S M
          Participant
            @sm83187

            I have noted that it does come in different bond strengths and I get the industrial stuff we use at work which is far superior to the domestic type variants such as Gorilla glue which is a cheaper and lower strength product with a low bond strength and longer curing times, we stick roofing materials together with it and the industrial types are fine for me, but I will avoid Gorilla glue for modelling.

            #78526
            S M
            Participant
              @sm83187

              Martin, do you find any issues with mould with aliphatic glue?

              #78529
              Charles Oates
              Participant
                @charlesoates31738

                Industrial Pu glue is certainly effective in the hands of those trained to use it safely. However I don't want to do my modeling with gloves, goggles, respirator and the recommended full body suit. I suppose we all use what works best for us. I'm aware that all glues need treating with respect, and can have issues of safety, but there are levels of that. Considering how much PVA I seem to get on my hands I don't think I'm a candidate for anything more aggressive.

                Chas

                #78530
                Martin Field 1
                Participant
                  @martinfield1

                  SM,

                  no I have never found a problem with mould, but then I will have covered any glue joints with whatever the finish is by then. However I know a lot of fine model shipwrights use it on their substantially un painted models and I can't recall anyone complaining of mould problems.

                  Why….have you?

                  Martin

                  #78531
                  Martin Field 1
                  Participant
                    @martinfield1

                    Chas,

                    I never use PVA unless there's a large-ish contact area as I find it has no real strength. I was sitting next to a hull tother day and suddenly there was a pop noise and the front end of a stringer had just let go from the stem! PVA had not held. This was days after it had set and I'd removed the clamps. I also don't like it for the rubberyness of the finished joint. I use 5 minute epoxy, aliphatic or sometimes Superglue although I don't really like using that too much for its smell. I have seen Titebond used a lot, but don't have a supplier near me and haven't got round to ordering any off ebay.

                    Martin

                    #78533
                    Colin Bishop
                    Moderator
                      @colinbishop34627

                      Aliphatic is an obvious choice for wood with its water cleanup as is the thinner quick grab SuperPhatic. Unless you are building a very large model only comparitively small quantities of glue are needed so it pays to use the best.

                      Superglue is effective but it can go brittle with age and is difficult to remove if it gets in the wrong place. Many people, including myself, have an allergic reaction to it although the odourless (and more expensive) type is tolerable.

                      Colin

                      #78536
                      Martin Field 1
                      Participant
                        @martinfield1

                        Colin,

                        I've found the superphatic to be the best I've used so far.

                        I'd never heard of it until I found a small pot in a stationary shop! I'd only gone in to buy an eraser! What a fortuitous find.

                        Martin

                        #78537
                        Colin Bishop
                        Moderator
                          @colinbishop34627

                          Yes, its expensive but a little goes a long way, It gets right into the joints just like superglue too. It's usually my first choice for wood.

                          Colin

                          #78538
                          Martin Field 1
                          Participant
                            @martinfield1

                            Agree completely. I must get myself a new supply of Superphatic.

                            Martin

                            #78539
                            Ray Wood 3
                            Participant
                              @raywood3

                              Hi All,

                              I have been using Aerolite 306 for 50 years + proper boat building glue, white powder mixed with water to a lovely syrup consistency on one part, liquid hardener (formic acid) on the other part to be joined, my dad told me used for Mosquito construction in the war, not 100% if true but sounds possible. This was used for dinghy construction until stitch & glue with the Mirror became popular. Aerolite has many dire warnings of being corrosive & harmful but still available from Axminster Tools

                              Regards Ray

                              #78540
                              Martin Field 1
                              Participant
                                @martinfield1

                                Ye Gods! Great for big real boat joints, but on a model? I used it at school and thought even then, "what a bloody faff"! I don't recall it being noticeably better than epoxy. Never knew how much of the hardener to put on the other side.

                                Martin

                                #78541
                                Colin Bishop
                                Moderator
                                  @colinbishop34627

                                  I was always a Cascamite fan, still available but things have moved on since then. What's not to like about a thin water soluble glue which dries waterproof. Ideal for models.

                                  Colin

                                  #78542
                                  Martin Field 1
                                  Participant
                                    @martinfield1

                                    Well, I have in my time used Croid! Remember that? Hide glue in a tube and a very old fashioned smell. My old boss (Mike Karslake) had bought a shop full of it! He had a drawer with nothing else in it, but cream tubes of Croid.

                                    Lloyd McCaffery, the noted American miniaturist will only use hide glue as he says that it's the only adhesive that has been around for as long as his models SHOULD last. It's a point of view I suppose, but keeping that iron pot on the go to keep the glue liquid is an even bigger faff than Aerolite!

                                    Martin

                                    #78543
                                    Ray Wood 3
                                    Participant
                                      @raywood3

                                      Hi All

                                      Yes alot of messing about, I use Gorilla wood glue, and Pound land 5min epoxy & super glue all sealed with West epoxy resin or similar

                                      Regards Ray

                                      #78544
                                      Martin Field 1
                                      Participant
                                        @martinfield1
                                        I get my superglue from the boot fairs for a quid a bottle. And Poundland epoxy when they have it, but Gorilla glue? It's an insult to Gorillas as far as I'm concerned.
                                        WEST epoxy for sealing as I have some left from a full sized boat restoration. It's dated 2015, but is still as good as the day it was new. Used some day before yesterday on a Sea Hornet which I'm modifying into a Chris-Craft. Today I rubbed it down and brushed cellulose primer surfacer all over it, then rubbed that down and sprayed a coat of it to avoid any more brush strokes. Tomorrow that will be wet sanded lightly and the red bottom colour sprayed on in enamel.
                                        Martin
                                        #78545
                                        Colin Bishop
                                        Moderator
                                          @colinbishop34627

                                          Still, I bet there's nothing to beat boilng down horses….wink

                                          Colin

                                          #78549
                                          Dave Milbourn
                                          Participant
                                            @davemilbourn48782

                                            Still, I bet there's nothing to beat boiling down horses

                                            Now he tells me, already – after I've put up a new workshop which is nowhere near big enough to hold a glue pot that size… Oy veh.
                                            My glue box includes aliphatic resin, Slo-Zap, Evo-Stick Impact, Plasweld and umpteen different speeds of epoxy. There may be a tube of balsa cement in there, too. No PU though.
                                            DM

                                            #78551
                                            S M
                                            Participant
                                              @sm83187

                                              Charles, I think you are going to extremes here as generally industrial PU does not need a respirator, goggles, gloves and a full body suit to use and in general goggles and gloves are usually a contractual requirement on most sites today along with the obligatory Hi Viz vest which many people appear to see as a fashion accessory.

                                              You can read the COSHH sheets if you go to the manufacturers website and download it or you can usually request a written version by post from most manufacturers, we get them as a matter of course for our H&S files for each project as they are a requirement.

                                              Martin, yes I have and while this seems to be less of a problem, or no problem on a sealed joint that it once was it seems to be a problem on exposed joints generally. uncovered and is not generally identifiable to the naked eye and we only determined it as mould when we had laboratory testing done. Mould does weaken a joint by some margin and can let go when put under load.

                                              #78552
                                              S M
                                              Participant
                                                @sm83187

                                                Ray, this was also used on the Hurricane in WW II but as these were linen covered and doped it would appear the main strength of Aerolite was to hold the frame together during the assembly process and much of the strength came from the shrinkage of the doped linen which held everything tightly in compression.

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