Drlling holes for metal fittings.

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Firstly I hope that is the correct term for the metal parts attached to the side of the hull which the shrouds are attached to (that is what the user guide refers to them as).

The same metal pieces are used on the front edge of the rudder and the rear of the hull to hold the rudder to the rear of the hull (see attached images marked as F137)

On my model (scale 1/100) they are quite small (as are all the other pieces for rigging the mast) and I am wondering what other model makers use to drill holes for chain plates to be attached to the hull. Obviously if holes are drilled a very small drill bit is required – 1 or 1.5mm. And what tool should be used? A normal cordless drill is large and maybe difficult to control.

Also what is the easiest method to put a taper on the timber supplied for masts and gaffs (the instructions only give the diameters at each end and they taper from 5 to 3mm and 3 to 2mm. The timber supplied is round but the same diameter from one end to the other. Maybe don't bother tapering them? Will that be noticed by friends?

Lastly. The rigging. Supplied in the kit as thin thread. Use a fine sewing needle to thread through the very small 'dead eyes'?

Thanks

John

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi John

Depends on how much you want to spend, but I'd recommend a Proxxon or Dremel drill which is equipped with a pin chuck, also a set of number drills size 1 – 60 and a smaller set of numbers 60 – 80, also a digital readout vernier is useful for measuring your fixing pins and the size of the drills to form the holes needed. Hope this helps ?

Regards Ray

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

For this kind of drilling I might also use a small rotary tool, as suggested by Ray, preferably held in a stand for better precision, but would be even more likely to put my hand out for a pin vice, such as this one: **LINK**.

It is quite surprising how efficient a tool that is; I have used mine to drill holes from 2.8 mm down to 0.3 mm in diameter, and getting a 1 mm drill bit through 3 or 4 mm thick brass only takes me a couple of minutes. The main advantage compared with a rotary tool, apart from the price, is the improved precision. With a rotary tool, even with a punch mark to start you off, there's always more of a risk that the bit goes dancing across the surface. Also, it is very easy to hold the piece still against the very limited rotary force created by the pin vice, while a rotary at, say, 5000 rpm will be inclined to spin the work piece around.

It is not that I don't use my rotary tools — I even have two, a Dremel and a cordless blue Bosch — but for really small jobs in thin material, I usually prefer the pin vice.

Mattias

 

Edited By Banjoman on 16/01/2018 11:57:40

Edited By Banjoman on 16/01/2018 11:58:11

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

I should perhaps add that there are different models of pin vice out there; the ones I use are of the type I linked to. However, have also tried the Archimedean drill type, but could never get it to work properly, finding it too much of a hassle to control the piece, the pressure, the point of attack and at the same time work the mechanism to be worth it.

I'm sure others' mileage will vary, but that's my tuppen'orth!

Mattias

[Tim CooperParticipant @timcooper90034]

John

Like Matthias I use a pin vice for most of the smaller holes. I used to use one like the picture Matthias posted, but found one with a 3 jaw Chuck on Amazon and quite a reasonable price.

Tim

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

John

Not sure where you live but Lidl are selling a cracking cordless hobby drill for £17.99 link a very respectable cordless drill for £24.99 link and a separate pack of hobby drill bits/accessories for £12.99 link.

Don't be put off by the perceived 'cheap and nasty' image of Lidl as these tools are of the same quality as Dremel or Bosch.

Paul

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Paul,

Are you really zartain shure that the Parkless rotary tool @ £17.99 is "of the same quality" as a Dremel at £ 99.99 (**LINK**) or a Bosch at £136 (**LINK**?

Good enough at the price, I don't doubt at all, but "of the same quality" as something that costs five or even seven times as much? Even considering big brand mark-up for name, and Lidl price pressing, that would suggest that Dremel and Bosch (these days Dremel is actually owned by Bosch) are completely ripping their customers off in a way that I very much doubt that they could get away with for long.

This is not to say that the Parkside rotary tool wouldn't be worth getting at what is indeed a very attractive price, but for my part at least I will need much more convincing proof before I accept your statement that they are of the same quality as models from more expensive brands.

Mattias

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

I only now noticed your second question on getting thin threads through deadeyes, blocks and similar, when setting up the rigging.

For my part, I would not use a sewing needle, as these tends to be too thick around the eye. One way is to use a needle threader (essentially a piece of double bent, very thin steel wire attached to a simple sort of handle), that you could pick up at any haberdasher's for probably under a quid.

My own preferred method is to put a small drop of thin CA glue on the end of the thread. This is then wicked up along the thread for maybe half an inch or so, making the end perfectly stiff and very easy to pass through any hole that's large enough for the thread itself to go through. Other glues will work too, but the advantages of thin CA are (a) that it wicks very well, and (b) that it sets in seconds, meaning that one doesn't have to wait long at all for the end to stiffen up. In addition, I usually wipe off any excess with some kitchen roll, to avoid bead forming (which will of course defeat the purpose) and to further hasten the setting time of the CA so that I can get on with the rigging work.

Once the line has been reeved and secured, the stiff half inch is easily removed with a pair of snippers.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 16/01/2018 14:00:43

Edited By Banjoman on 16/01/2018 14:01:16

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Mattias

I am a professional engineer and not one to proffer such advice without having first closely examined and thoroughly inspected all of the tools in question.

You mention that Dremel is now owned by Bosch but you might not know that most of these products are actually manufactured by factories in Mexico whereas Parkside tools are manufactured to professional tool standards by companies such as Einhell.

In my experience a high ticket price does not always indicate a better quality.

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi, John,

These are the tools that I am using, in the foreground are a pack of micro drills and an eclipse secondary chuck it will hold drills from 2mm. down to about .3mm. In the background are the 2 planes that I use, with either of these you can taper the top of your wooden mast.

Regard and happy modelling

Eddie

[Byron Rees…(Ron)Participant @byronrees-ron]

I have bought a few Parkside gadgets from Lidl and some, like their 6 inch bench sanding disc machine are incredible value. Bought a minidrill as well and that is really very good quality, don't think the drill bits are brilliant but the ME at Ally Pally is upon us and you can buy anything recommended above at that show.

Cheers….Ron.

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

Like Paul T, I worked in engineering all my life and have nothing but praise for the Lidl range of tools. I have not purchased anything big but certainly their Powerfix range of smaller tools is very good. Lookout for their 6"/150mm digital caliper at just under £10. All (I think) of German origin. The ME show at Ally Pally has been mentioned. Try Tracy Tools for drills, taps dies etc., good quality at a very reasonable price Yes, some tools are cheap and not very cheerful but there is some good stuff around and I think that many well known brand names now procure their equipment from the Far East with just a well known brand label attached.

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Thanks everyone for all you replies.

I particularly liked the idea of the pin vice for all the reasons given especially the price.

I had not thought of a needle threader even though my mother used to be a dressmaker and had many in her "sewing room"

Is there an easy way of tapering thin wooden dowels (for the masts) or is it just a case of carefully sanding?

I seem to have perhaps started up a 'hornets nest' regarding tools such as Dremel.

I usually live by the saying "you get what you paid for" but have found that this is not always exactly true. May years ago I purchased an OZITO brand corded 2 speed hammer drill from BUNNINGS (local Australian hardware chain) with a 3 year warranty for the 'princely' sum of $A30 (about £20). I figured that if it failed within 3 years it would be replaced and even if it lasted just past the warranty period it would still be cheap. I lasted more than 6 years before the trigger switch eventually died. And I used it HEAPS especially attached to a small pump to pump out water after heavy rain. Guess what I replaced it with? The same brand.

I am not trying to make suggestions about Dremel and the other brands but thought I would put my "two bobs worth in".

Also it is interesting what company now own what brands.

Thanks again everyone.

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Hello again

I found one (pin vice) on Ebay and it also appears to spin the 'chuck' as you push down on the handle and comes with many very small drill bits. Very cheap and maybe not good quality but hopefully it will last a dozen small holes.

There were others available too but from China and that usually takes 4-6 weeks to arrive.

If you want to have a look WoAAOSwQNRXLH8o”>https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Twist-Drill-Pin-Vice-0-1-2mm-20pc-Micro-HSS-Bits-Jewellery-Model-Craft-BI144/182036149388?epid=852267096&hash=item2a6233348c:gWoAAOSwQNRXLH8o

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

I would use my trusty Bradawl……

The sharp point is a good method of zeroing in on the right spot

Bob

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Thanks Bob, my father used to have a couple of those – he used to be a carpenter in the 1940's. He used to have a lot of what I thought strange wood working tools like a chisel which had a curved 'blade' which I think is a gouge tool and also a 'spokeshave'.

I see they area described as "an awl for making small holes in wood for brads."

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

The pin vice you linked to on e-Bay is the so-called archimedean type, i.e. with a push down action. I have tried these, and don't really like them, as I find that the force required to push down the mechanism to turn the drill makes it much more difficult to keep both work piece and drill steady.

I much prefer this type: **LINK**. For me the key advantage is that you can operate it with one hand by pushing down on the flared crown with the hollow of the palm of your hand while using thumb, index and long finger to twist the shaft around. This leaves the other hand free to hold the work piece steady.

You may of course try the push-down typ and come to the conclusion that it works fine for you; I just wanted to share my experience, for what it is (or isn't) worth …

For tapering spars at the sort of size you're looking at, I'm afraid I cheat by using a micro woodturning lathe; however, one method for doing it by hand that I've seen described (but not really tried myself because of said micro lathe) is to first cut the spar to a tapering, octagonal section, using a small plane, a knife or by sanding, before carefully sanding it round.

If the spars are not too long, a sort of lathe can also be improvised, at least for final sanding, by fixing the non-tapering end in a power drill of some kind, preferably one that can be set to rev in the lower thousands of rpm. This can be a bit hit and miss, though, as beyond a certain length the free end will begin to whip around. One way of dealing with such whipping that I've used is to wear a leather work glove on one hand, and use that hand as a steady for the free end. Also, as the chuck will leave marks in the wood, it is important to have the blank slightly overlong, so that the marked end bit can be cut off and discarded.

Mattias

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Hello Paul,

You wrote

I am a professional engineer and not one to proffer such advice without having first closely examined and thoroughly inspected all of the tools in question.

You mention that Dremel is now owned by Bosch but you might not know that most of these products are actually manufactured by factories in Mexico whereas Parkside tools are manufactured to professional tool standards by companies such as Einhell.

In my experience a high ticket price does not always indicate a better quality.

I'm sorry to be so difficult to convince — just call me Tom! — but you could you please be as specific as possible on of what your close examination and thorough inspection consisted?

Before that, though, perhaps better make sure that we're not discussing semantics or definitions! What do you mean when you say "of the same quality"? For me this means that the things compared must be so close/identical as to make no difference in functionalty, precision in use, general usability and ease of use, quality of materials (plastics, metals, whatever) and component parts (motor, wiring, bearings, gearing, electrics and electronics, etc.), finish, workmanship and assembly, availabality of accessories (same-brand or compatibility with other brands), durability, spare parts and after-sales service.

In other words, I mean the absolute and intrinsic quality of the things themselves, not if they will both do the same job equally well. The latter is a form of relative quality, which to me is a different kettle of fish.

If what you meant is the former, i.e. absolute quality, I am thoroughly intrigued by what you say, and would be really and truly grateful for a much more detailed account of how, precisely, you have arrived at this, to me, startling conclusion! Have you tried these machines in parallel? Have you opened them up and looked inside? Or what?

I, too, know, both from my own experience and from the serious and reliable type of consumer tests of a number of things that there is not necessarily a direct or proportional relationship between price and quality. Most expensive is not always best.

However, it is also my experience that you very seldom get something for nothing, and that for next to nothing you should not get your hopes up too high, either. If it were really possible to sell the exact same, absolute quality of tool for a tenth of the price, I would have expected either Bosch to be long since out of business, or their tools selling for a fraction of their current price.

Unless one is truly expert, and/or capable of looking under the hood of one's tools (which I am not), one does to some extent have to decide what to get based on previous experience, reviews and/or general trust, and it is for the latter that the price does have some importance: if it is not too low, at least there is a margin that can be used for quality; if it is really low, one has to suspect that corners must be cut.

Then, concerning production sites, yes: I am well aware of the global spread of these, including at least some of what goes for Dremel and Bosch, if nothing else because it says on each tool where it was made, and I am in the habit of checking this information when I buy one. Of my six blue series Bosch tools, one is made in Germany, one in Switzerland, one in the Czech Republic, one in Italy, one in Malaysia and one (the rotary tool) in China, while my Dremel is indeed made in Mexico.

To be perfectly honest, I find what you wrote in this regard a tad on the disingeneous side as you've formulated in such a way (the "whereas" is a main culprit) as to make Dremel/Bosch seem slightly suspect for producing in Mexico, while claiming for Parkside production "to professional tool standards" through (German) Einhell or a similar company. Surely you don't mean to imply that Parkside tools are made in Germany or any other place than some lowcost country of production?! I'd suppose PRC (other options are available). Or that Bosch, at least, does not produce to a "professional tool standard"?

As I said before, after your testimony (and that of some others in this thread), I certainly do not doubt that these Parkside tools are worth their price and quite likely even more; I also do not doubt that they will do most hobby jobs to which they are likely to be applied well enough.

In other words, I'm sure they are good value for money, am prepared to believe that their relative quality for hobby type jobs is close enough to same, but I am not even near being convinced that they are of the same absolute quality as the more expensive brands.

I am, however, very willing to listen to arguments, and would like to underline that all this is not a question of ego; if I have paid far too much for a brand-name, please feel free to laugh along as I laugh at myself!

Also, I have this morning put in an order with Lidl here in Belgium for one at €19.99, in order to also form my own opinion. As I already have enough rotaries, if I find it to be usable, after testing I will donate it to some deserving soul who has none.

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 17/01/2018 10:55:54

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

Just for the sake of completeness, when I came home from the office today, I went down to my workshop and tested the two different types of pin vice, the one you linked to on eBay and the kind I linked to on Amazon.

With a 0.9 mm drill bit, I used both in turn to drill through a scrap piece of 1.6 mm thick brass; in both instances it took me pretty much exactly two minutes. I also realised that some of bias against the archimedean type had been based on a lack of understanding on my part (how often is that not the case with one's biases!?) of the fact that after each pushdown on the spring loaded push action, I had to let go of it completely for the spring to be able to bring it quickly back up again, ready for the next push. It still needed both hands to be operated, but for the rest it came out of the test in a slightly better daylight than that in which I had previously viewed it!

The other type still had the advantage of being workable with a single hand, and I could thus work with the piece of brass held up, away from the worktable.

For the rest, they were pretty much equal.

Good luck and lots of rilling fun with whichever you decide on!

Mattias

[Byron Rees…(Ron)Participant @byronrees-ron]

OH DEAR!!!!!.

We are really splitting hairs now. This is far to heavy for a friendly, informative blog site which is meant to offer advice and informed experiences to others.

Standard green Bosch power tools are aimed at the domestic market and have a quality and price commensurate with that market. Black and Decker are the same. You can't say that Bosch don't use motors made in Taiwan, speed control boards sourced from Singapore and I'm sure they don't make their own chucks. Wolf and B&D tools used Jacobs chucks when they first started, they don't anymore!.

I have destroyed more top of the line power drills by DeWalt and Bosch in over 55 years of industry that I won't buy them anymore, believe it or not Hitachi are every bit as good, hard wearing and reliable, and they are not German either.

My mini circular saw is German and has a Johnson 12v brushed motor in it, a Chinese switch assembly and a Polish tipped blade. The casing and bed are German and so were the instructions. It works quite well for the money. But it's not as good as my £2,500. All guaranteed British made Wadkin table saw.

Who knows what is good and bad unless they have experience of it. And that is what we are here to impart, in a nice, friendly way…..please, and we should be able to recommend something we have found that is good, even if it is cheap.

And whether I want to make a hole with a sharpened nail and a hammer or use an Archimedes drill or Awl or Bradawl doesn't really matter, they will all do the job according to our own talents and abilities. Who's to say what is right and what is wrong if it works well for us…..Horses for Courses.

Ron.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Well Said Ron

Regards Ray

PS I love Aldi & Lidl shopping great stuff ! oh and Poundland

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 17/01/2018 16:50:04

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Ron,

Please rest assured that everything I have written above has been intended as friendly and nothing but friendly! I have asked questions and invited discussion on a matter where I am yet to be convinced that Paul T. and I would agree, but please believe that this has not been done in affect or anger or to invite discord.

I will, however, plead guilty to a certain amount of hairsplitting, yeronner, and am happy to desist immediately if this has caused discomfort to fellow forumers!

Well, almost immediately: I would just like to point out that when I've spoken about tools from Bosch, I have only ever meant their blue (i.e. professional) line, and not the green DIY range.

I shall now try my utmost (failure, alas, remains a possibility) to remain silent on the subject!

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 17/01/2018 16:50:46

[CookieParticipant @cookie15923]

I work in a toolroom using CNC and conventional machines all day round ,the cutters i use are only of top quality i.e Dormer /Sandvik / Kyocera ect . I was tasked last year to try and make a cost saving so i did extensive trials on unbranded cutters that claimed to have the same performance as the ones mentioned ,what a disaster ,a total waste of my time and money they were not in the same league so if you want a tool to produce top quality components day in day out then you MUST only buy the best. Having said all that in my workshop at home apart from my lathe which is a Colchester the rest of my kit mid priced , i have the same bandsaw as Banjoman a Record Power BS250 only £250 , i am sure he will agree it's quality as a lot to be desired but it does a ok job for a model boat builder , i could have spent £3000 but whats the point when i only use it now and then . So yes you do only get what you pay for but if you are only using the tools for a hobby then the cheaper ones are ok ,why buy a Aston Martin to nip to Tesco.

Dave

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Mattias

It seems that we have inadvertently created what politicians might call an 'incident' so before the U.N. become involved [or worse still we get tweeted by Donald] I think we should strive to reach some agreement about these power tools of mass destruction.

So in the spirit of international diplomacy I concur that my comments were slightly generalised so I wish to add that I do undertake a detailed examination of specifications and even strip tools down [during maintenance] to inspect individual components.

I also agree that the Bosch blue 110v tools are possibly the best tradesmans tools, (with the exception of a Makita tec gun which is the best tecscrew gun ever). I have a well used set of 110v Bosch tools that have served me well for almost 25 years and the jigsaw is still my go to tool for cutting out boat frames.

Paul

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