Drlling holes for metal fittings.

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Paul,

I don't think I'm breaking my recent promise to Ron to cease and desist by humbly and gratefully acknowledging your very kind and gentlemanly posting; not only do I concur in your judgement that a case of the DTs by Twitter is to be avoided at all cost, but would to that end like to cordially invite you to share any future news or revelations concerning tools' innards and suchlike by PM

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 17/01/2018 19:22:44

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Thanks again everyone for your input to my initial question But what have I started ?

I didn't realise that there were such things as mini lathes but something I would never get value out of as this will possibly be my first and last model boat construction. Maybe not but possibly.

I have decided to NOT purchase that 'spiral' Pin Vice and purchase the one linked to. I have found many diffeernt brands some of which appear better than others. Also that TAMIYA (better known to me for plastic kits) also market one.

I have also determined that I have indeed many many very small holes to drill in my model (eye bolts etc). IT annoys me that the user instructions do not have a list of tools which will be required in the construction. Maybe the kit is aimed to people who have built other boats and are familiar.

I have learned such a lot from this forum and I am indebted to all your suggestions and opinions.

We too have Aldi here in Australia which often sell tools. I always remember a friend telling me years ago that he purchased an angle grinder from them for a very low price. He took it apart expecting to find plain bearings and plastic gears and was surprised to find ball bearings and metal gears. It's possibly similar to the OZITO brand sold at BUNNINGS hardware stores (exclusive brand to them) which have a 3 year domestic use/DIY warranty and my corded 2 speed hammer drill lasted 6 years. Made in China the quality coming out of there is getting heaps better. .**LINK**

Thanks again everyone. I thing we can put this thread "to bed" Do I need to close this thread as 'solved'?

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Sorry I also meant to state that the cheaper tools are probably aimed at home user/DIY market and are often good enough for that. The 3 year warranty I mentioned in an earlier post for OZITO brand ONLY applies to DIY use. Many other brands also have a shorter warranty period when not used in DIY. In fact when I worked in maintenance at a school and purchased a power tool which failed within the DIY period they would not honour that warranty as I had purchased the tool on the schools account which they regarded as 'commercial use'.

So its a bit like 'horses for courses'?

[shipwrightParticipant @shipwright]

I thought I would look into this ("Einhell&quot. See :

**LINK**

…. so Paul is correct but not all of Lidl's "Parkside" range of tools are Einhell

Ian

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

No worries — just a healthy discussion amongst consenting adults, during which no electrons were harmed …

There are indeed micro lathes out there, both for metal and for wood turning; the one I was referring too is a Proxxon Micro Lathe. If you look at the bottom of this page (**LINK**) of my Eilean Mòr thread, and then also about halfway down on the following page, you can see it in action, as it were … A very nice piece of kit, but as you, say, not worth getting if this build is a one-off for you. Should you get the bug bad, though, and decide to go for HMS Victory or some such kit with spars a-plenty next, it might be worth looking into.

Billings' instructions do have a bit of a mixed reputation, I'm afraid, but on the other hand they don't try to flog you more or less worthless "tools" of their own invention as do some of the Italian static kit makers.

Although some things are pretty obvious inclusions in a list of tools, there are many individual preferences involved, too, so a definite list would be hard to draw up, I think. If one sticks with the hobby, one's preferences and techniques tend to develop over time, with certain tools a constant go-to, and others, that one thought on aquistion would be the bees knees, languishing at the back of dusty drawers.

And then there are of course some us that suffer (No! There's absolutely no suffering involved! We love it!) from severe and advanced TAS*, in my case probably bordering on fullblown TF** with some unfortunate tendencies towards DTS*** …

Good luck with your upcoming drilling adventures and the build in general!

Mattias

* Tool Acquisition Syndrome

** Tool Fetischism

*** Disagreeable Tool Snobbery

Edited By Banjoman on 18/01/2018 07:23:28

Edited By Banjoman on 18/01/2018 07:24:22

Edited By Banjoman on 18/01/2018 07:30:42

Edited By Banjoman on 18/01/2018 07:32:07

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Well said Mattias and very diplomatic of you.

Two more questions.

Does anyone rub anything onto the thin thread (for the rigging) to help slow down any possible rotting or is the supplied thread long lasting? And oh all those places where a knot is normally used but for such thin thread and all those cross pieces on the rigging (ratlines?) – just use super glue I hope?

Is low sheen acrylic paint usually sold for interior painting of houses ok to use on models?

[Byron Rees…(Ron)Participant @byronrees-ron]

THE MAN WHO DIES WITH THE MOST TOOLS…………….WINS!!!

Seen on a T.Shirt…….I think I'm in the lead at the moment.

RON.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

John,

The thread shouldn't rot but it may be 'hairy' which looks unrealistic. The usual solution to this is to use a beeswax cake as sold by soft furnishing and dressmaker's shops etc. Like this:

**LINK**

Of course it will then be difficult to glue waxed thread though!

A method I have used successfully is to run the thread through a shallow bowl of moderately diluted Apliphatic wood glue which will both smooth and stiffen it and it dries clear. Run it between your fingers as it comes out of the bowl. If you wind it round a spar it will stick to it and will also stick to itself. It might sound a bit messy but the glue is water clean up so when your fingers get a bit sticky just wash them.

Superglues can be messier and mistakes difficult to remedy, it can also go brittle after a while.

Re the paint, domestic paint is usually too thick for smallish models, scale wise it is a bit like painting your house with syrup! So it will tend to cover detail and round off edges that should be sharp. Definitely better to use enamel or acrylic modelling paints but make sure that the acrylics are OK for brush painting and not the thin stuff used for airbrushes.

Colin

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

It is indeed not only usual but recommended to pull the thread through a piece of beeswax before rigging it. This, however, is not done for any preserving qualities it might have (for even cotton thread to rot, you'd have to keep the finished model in such damp conditions that the rigging thread would be the least of your worries.

No, the reason is that this flattens down the fibres of the thread, and thereby prevents it from looking fussy when viewed really close-up!

As for the ratlines, even at scale 1:100, I would not recommend trying to glue them on directly, as CA (i.ee. superglue) will be wicked into the thread, and make it quite stiff; also, it sets so quickly that you'll hardly have time to correct any small errors of adjustment, and thus risk getting wonky-looking ratlines.

Even though it'll be fiddly, it is much better to tie them on with a series of double hitches around the shrouds. I usually do five or six ratlines at a time, and then adjust them for distance from each other and correct angle with a spacing jig made up from a sliver of wood or plastic or cardboard or whatever, so that they are evenly spaced and in general look right.

I then dab a dollop of watered-down PVA glue (i.e. standard wood glue) onto each knot, and let this set; while the glue is going off, I move on to the next set of shrouds and ratlines, and so on. The watered-down PVA will dry completely clear and invisible, but will secure the knots more than sufficiently. I use the same method any where else in the rigging where there's a permanent knot of some kind; it is very effective, but won't wick in the same way as CA glue does, nor stiffen the line anywhere near as much.

Acrylic interior paint is in principle fine for use on models, in the sense that it won't hurt them in any way; I haven't used such paints since my youthful building days, though, but based on my memeries from back then would suspect that it could be rather easy to apply a bit too thickly. This might have been due to lack of painting skills on my åart back in the day, though.

If you have some paint of the sort you have in mind around the house already, nothing is simpler than to make up a test piece of scrap material, and paint it to see what you think of the result!

If you would like to to use a dedicated model paint, my absolute favourite for brush painting a static model of a wooden ship is the Admiralty Paints series from JoTiKa; these are sold in Australia through a company called Miniature Steam Models (**LINK**) and are really nice to work with! The pigments are very strong, so they cover extremely well, and you don't need huge quantities; they have good, self-levelling properties, and in general are a treat to work with! The same goes for the wood stains in the same series. The only drawback is the limited colour palette, as they are developed specifically for Napoleonic era men-o'-war, so you would have to check this against the colour scheme you want to use.

But as I said: if you have interior paint around the house already, give it a try on a test piece and see if you like the result!

Mattias

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

On an additional note, should you decide to use model paints, but find the range of Admiralty Paints too limited, another brand of acrylics of which I have good experience is Vallejo Model Color; many (most, even) model shops that cater for the plastic crowd will carry them. Here, f'rinstance, is one in Melbourne: **LINK**.

Please note: Vallejo Model Color, not Vallejo Model Air! The latter is basically the same paints, but pre-thinned for airbrush painting, and so much less suited for brush application.

As these are mainly bought by plastic modellers, who in general tend to find military subjects very intersting, there is a bit of a preponderance of Olive greens, khakis and suchlike, but most of the usual spectrum of colours can be found in the range, too.

The classic Humbrol paints also exist in an acrylic version these days (**LINK**), but as I've never tried them, I have no idea how they compare with the original enamels.

Mattias

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Thanks again everyone,

I will purchase model acrylic paints and not use normal house type acrylic paint for the reasons given although I might seal and prime with a 3 in 1 primer/sealer available in hardware stores and is suitable for any 'substrate' and under any topcoat as long as it it sandable and I will test it first. I already have this in my garage.

Beeswax should be readily available and will probably make the thread a little easier to pull though dead eyes and blocks. I assume the thread is 'waxed' before threading it? And a dab of watered down PVA glue on the knots after tied although that may not work if waxed. I will do some experimenting.

I am gob smacked at this web site and forums and more importantly the members like you chaps.

The more I find out how to do things the more I am less concerned about finishing my model and might even start another one later but one with no rigging. Even though I haven't started that yet I feel that it is going to be very fiddly and time consuming.

I have found many videos on Youtube of the real Bluenose II and am amazed that the colours on it differ considerable from the colours recommended in the User Instructions. I will be trying to match to the real boat.

John

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

After Googling some of the ideas you have given I found what appears to be an excellent 6 part document on building a Bluenose II from a kit by Artesania Latina. Here is the first part **LINK**

In the last part (8) the author states that he ran the thread for the rigging through liquid shoe polish to change the colour to a colour more like rope colour. I might just do that. Have any of you guys done that?

He than ran it through beeswax as you suggested.

There are lots of photos and while it is not the same as the Billings kit I have already solved other questions I had for instance how to set up the masts, do the rigging and the ratlines etc and also where to place the anchor. These are not covered very well if at all in the Billings book.

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

John,

For my part, no, I have never tried staining thread with shoe polish, but obviously it can be done!

On my static build of HMS Pickle, some years ago, I used India ink to stain the ratlines black after they were secured in place (having first very carefully covered everything underneath them with clingfilm to protect against spills or dripping).

Soaking in tea or coffee is another trick I've heard of to darken the colour of thread and I'm sure there are yet other options available!

What I have also often done, is to replace kit-suuplied thread with better stuff.

For anything from 0.2 mm and upwards, there is lovely, beautiful, real laid miniature rope available in four different colours (black, brown, tan and natural) from the Syren Ship Model Company in the US: **LINK**. Not only is this stuff gorgeous, both to look at and work with, it is surprisingly reasonably priced at between USD 4.50 and 6.00 per 20 feet, and shipping charges to Europe at least have also been very reasonable!

For smaller stuff than 0.2 mm, I quite like the 0.10 mm natural rigging thread from Caldercraft (aka JoTiKa): **LINK**.

You may well find going to such lengths as sending off across the globe for replacement thread excessive, and I'm sure that you'll get a satisfactory result already with the thread supplied. If you think that it needs staining, the best way of finding out which method you like best is to run a few trials and and see what you think!

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 09:47:35

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Ratlines….are we building them on commercial jigs or making our own here? All this talk of adjusting the treads makes me think that only the vertical components are on a jig?

​I will be forced to make ratlines for something of a moderate size probably during the summer. Knotting them all together does not fill me with deep joy and I was rather hoping that a blob of PVA would be all that's required….,

​Embroidery/haberdashery shops do not get much of a mention, they usually have any amount and types of thread, are none of these suitable?

Ashley

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Ashley,

Are we by any chance talking HMS Victory here, as in the kit you were given? At what scale was it again?

In any case, my view of ratline making is that off-the-model jigs, commercial or home-made, are to be avoided as the plague! There is indeed one such sold by one of the Italian kit makers (I forget which one), and I have yet to hear of anyone using one of those with success.

The idea may seem tempting to produce the shroud and ratline assembies off the model, sort of like the moulded plastic ones that used to be included in Airfix and similar kits, but it is very, very hard to get everything set up and kept just so all the way through so that the whole is correctly tensioned and adjusted when on the model.

What I meant when I said "jig" in a previous post was just a simple spacer, i.e. a simple piece of strip wood or plastic of the same width as the desired distance between two ratlines. If the ratlines should be set 3 mm apart, that simply means a 3 mm wide strip of whatever material.

My preferred technique is to first permanently set up and properly tension all the shrouds, backstays and stays on the model.

Then each ratline, beginning with the lowest one, is knotted with double hitches to the relevant set of shrouds at approximately the right place and approximately the right distance from the one above and below. Once I have knotted say five or so ratlines in place, I use my simple spacing strip to check all the spacings, and adjust as needed by using the tip of a pair of fine tweezers to slide knots up or down along the shrouds. Once I'm satisfied with the position of each ratline, I pull the two outermost knots fully tight once more, using flat tweezers or pliers to hold them inside of the shroud and pulling on the free end with my fingers.

I then secure all the knots by putting a liberal dollop of watered-down PVA glue on each, and, while the glue sets, I move on the the next set of shrouds, either on the other side of the ship or on the next mast along, or if there are ratlines on the topmast shrouds as well, up there.

The reason why I don't do more than five or six ratlines at a time on each set of shrouds is because beyound that many, I find that the adjustment phase gets too complex: say that you need to adjust the second from below in the batch you're working on, if you have three more above that must also be moved in consequence, that's doable; if you have ten or fifteen to adjust, above or below the one you just moved, it is much more of a hassle to get them all just so.

Another technique that I haven't tried myself, but have seen emplyed with success, is to plot the shroud-and-ratline patterns out onto pieces of stiff cardboard, and to set that up behind the shrouds to help with the spacing and adjusting. I would still do only five or so per batch, though, as it is much easier to carry on with the next batch above when the glue securing the previous batch has set, as this gives you a nice, solid datum to continue from.

I know that the task seems both daunting and dull when contemplated beforehand, and I have certainly not done anything on the scale of HMS Victory, but once you get the hang of tying the double hitches (tip: tweezers come in very handy here, too!), it is surprisingly straightforward and quick! And it makes a huge difference to the finsihed model! Sloppy ratlines will stand out a mile; neatly done, which is not difficult (just repetitive), theyreally look nice!

Mattias

 

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 11:10:05

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 11:12:08

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 11:12:43

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

I forgot to mention anything in my previous post about my views on the suitability of sewing thread and other materials available from haberdashery or embroidery shops.

I'm sure there are threads sold in such places that'll do nicely for certain jobs and purposes, but in general I think the main reasons why these places don't get too much mention are:

1. Many (most? all?) such threads tends to be too loosely laid to look much like rope, and for the same reason will have ends that will come unlaid (fray, as it were) much to easily — think of what a sewing thread looks like after being passed through the eye of a needle a few times …
2. Many such threads are also a bit too stretchy.
3. They are not well assorted for size! Scale sizes of rope is one of the period ship model builder's main equivalents to rivets-to-be-counted, but even if one doesn't bother about being exactly true to scale, it is important to at least reperesent in a credible way the difference of size between different components of both standing and running rigging.

As always, I'm sure that a creative builder who is also inventive and diligent in his search for materials, could find and use stuff from these kind of shops, but I'm not sure that it would be worth the effort required when compared to the relative ease (and limited expense) of getting materials made for the purpose.

However, for the ultimate model rigging experience, i.e. making one's own scale rope, the embroidery field will be a great source for raw material, as that is where you can get extremely fine, high quality linen yarns to use in your model ropewalk!

Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 11:38:33

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 11:39:22

Edited By Banjoman on 19/01/2018 12:01:49

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Matt. Loads of info there, thanks.
​Surprisingly NOT the Victory I was given but something else (PM), and this is a much larger scale than the kit.

​I am a way away from making rigging, but the time will come. One issue is that the masts will need to be de-mountable, so all the ropes and so on will need unhooking, from one end or the other. Tricky, but as I say, I am a way away yet.

Ashley

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

Some very good information there Matthias.

Also some information on rigging and using 'jigs' in part 9 of that tutorial I mentioned previously.

Have a look at **LINK**

I now have my pin vice and 15 HSS drill bits from 0.3 to 1mm in 0.05 steps so I can now progress..

I did notice a pin vice which has a straight sided 'handle' with no 'button' on the end which turns ( **LINK** ). At first I wondered why but then thought perhaps the tool could be inserted in the chuck of a hand drill or drill press. Is that what that type is used for?

[John Arnold 3Participant @johnarnold3]

TYpo in my previous post should be part 8 not part 9

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Only just seen this thread.

As a long time professional modelmaker, let me say that I have never had a Dremel for more than a short time as my son snaffled it, knowing as he did that I had several others. They included a Minicraft, which still lives on in a small milling attachment I made out of it and a derelict Fax machine. The drill got the martin ain't a patient man treatment. The chuck went loose and a hole went wrong. I threw the tool the length of the workshop and it stuck itself through the plywood walls until my wife wiggled it out. The shaft twixt motor and ball races was slightly bent and the switch was smashed, BUT, the shaft and its 2 ballraces were fine. The motor shaft cut back to where it wasn't bent allowed me to turn and install a connecting brass sleeve and it all got made into a sweet little Jacobs chucked milling drilling attachment for the vertical slide of my Peatol lathe.

The Proxxon, I got cheap in a special deal somewhere lasted for a few weeks intermittent use before the electronic speed control packed up. That was maybe 10 years ago and, wired direct, so full speed, has worked perfectly ever since, including driving a dental burr (from Proops, by the handful at the ME exhibition) through 1/16th" thick brass to make window apertures on my brass 1/43rd scale brass masters for white metal kits, dozens of times. It is, of course, just another Mabuchi/Johnson "buggy" motor like all the others, but has lasted and still does, no thanks, I fancy, to Proxxon, which I consider grossly overpriced , as I do Dremel. I have several other Minicraft(Maxicraft) tools, none of which cost more than 25 quid, when that was a very good price.

Obviously all my tools get a lot more use than a hobbyist would give them. I also used to work in full sized car design studios in Europe. Bosch tools were not at all popular, especially in Germany, where the much preferred power tools, right down to the "shop" vacuum cleaner were Festo. Simply superb design and utterly reliable. Not the cheapest, but, like certain things from the Czech republic, well worth it. I don't know if Festo is Czech, just making a comparison.

I recently took a battery drill apart because it was Ni-Cad powered and the cells were dead and unreplaceable now, and guess what? Another buggy motor. And a speed control that whistles like an ESC, so they will be pressed into use in a boat. Waste not , want not, but equally, don't cast out the cheap stuff. I have used a lot of Lidls stuff and all of it has given sterling service. As a notoriously tight wad, that's very important to me.

Pin vice definitely, for small holes. Minidrills are too vicious.I am useless at drilling holes. There's an admission for a professional modelmaker, but I am. Even when I had an optical centre punch. So, if it's thin metal, I bash a good centre punch where I want the hole, then I quickly file off the bump on the back and presto! a wee hole appears, which I then put one of several 5 sided Jewellers' broaches into to open up to where I want the size to be.

Cheers,

Martin

[S MParticipant @sm83187]

Just to add to the Aldi episode, Aldi and Lidl along with other retailers often buy end of line goods at discounted prices and put them up "on sale" alongside their core range of tools, so let me explain.

Factory in anywhereshire tools up for a production run of 1 million units and many have flexible arrangements with a number of retailers, if for some reason the retailers cannot move these items as quickly as expected they take fewer from the manufacturer. Every manufacturer has a "yield point" and if the manufacturers yield point is 500,000 units then their breakeven point will be a lower figure as the yield point is their breakeven point plus profits.

Once they reach their breakeven point any sales over this is profit, once they reach their yield point they have hit their sales and profitibility point and anything over this is additional profit, so anything sold over the 500,000 units is merely additional profit and they can offload these additional units at reduced profits to increase their own profits.

If Tesco, Sainsburys, Screwfix, and two other large retailers all order 100,000 units each and they retail the item for £49.99 they will not be buying them in for more than £15.00 per unit and this will include the manufacturers profit, and they will have hit their yield point and made their profits. If the manufacturer moves these additional items for £10 each and Aldi move in and snap up 200,000 units they can retail them for £20 and still have 100% mark up on them and move twice as many units at double the price they paid for them and have virtually guaranteed sales, while not losing profits and passing the savings on to the customer.

Here endeth the first lesson in world retail economics.

[captainslogParticipant @captainslog]

what a brilliant thread really enjoyed reading every word of this one, all about drill bits was it? well i have just picked up really good tips on how i am going to tackle the ratlines on my endeavour. when i get to that point i will return.so please,please keep this thread going.loved it

keith

[Author]

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