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  • #6134
    Tony Hadley
    Participant
      @tonyhadley

      Conversion to electric from steam and other repairs

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      #44596
      Tony Hadley
      Participant
        @tonyhadley

        glasgow 2.jpg

        The above photograph is after the last restoration.

        In the November 2013 Model Boats magazine, Phil Button carries out part 2 of his Graupner Glasgow paddle tug conversion to John H Amos. This part was to remove the temporary electric drive and install a steam plant. Phil has take a lot of precautions to prevent the steam plant damaging the interior of the model. Quite interesting when a lady nearby asked him is the model supposed to smell like that – No I think it’s on fire!

        With my model, built as the kit, the intention is to go the other way by removing the steam plant and installing a permanent electric drive system. The photograph shows the damage that years of use with the steam installation have take its toll on the model’s interior. The difficulty in obtaining a steam safety certificate for the boiler, the varnished deck being ruined and I would need to fabricate an aluminium tray for the boiler are other factors which swayed this decision. Some of the damage is irrepairable (e.g. new deck) and to re-build as a first class standard it would be easier to start again with a new kit.

        glasgow de-steam (1).jpg

        Steam plant now removed and a MFA geared motor 11:1 ratio purchased. At 6 volt the motor gives 718 rpm which when reduced by a further 3:1 gear ratio gives a no load paddle speed of 239 rpm, which should be in the right ‘ball park’. The intention is to retain the 3:1 Graupner gears should the steam plant be re-installed at some time in the future. The layshaft and its gears which further reduced the steam plant from 3:1 to 9:1 was also removed and placed into safe storage.

        As the motor shaft on the MFA motor is 6mm diameter and the bore of the gear is only 5mm diameter, an MFA 6mm to 5mm converter was sourced from technobots. This option was chosen, as I no longer have access to a lathe, to make my own adapter shaft, since finishing work. As this will extend the length of the motor some of the coaming will need to be cut away.

        glasgow de-steam (3).jpg

        Before the shaft adapter was bought, I considered boring out the pinion, but as can be seen there just wasn't enought brass.

        glasgow de-steam (4).jpg

        Tony

         

        Edited By Tony Hadley on 24/10/2013 08:24:40

        Edited By Tony Hadley on 24/10/2013 08:35:07

        #44598
        Tony Hadley
        Participant
          @tonyhadley

          Found this photograph of the Wilesco D48 steam plant when installed.

          glasgow steam 8.jpg

          Tony

          #44599
          Bob Abell 2
          Participant
            @bobabell2

            Hello Tony

            Nice looking model

            How did the model perform under steam?

            Bob

            #44600
            Ian Gardner
            Participant
              @iangardner62867

              Hi Tony,

              I have tended to go the same way with my steam models and converted them all to electric. The novelty of oil and muck slopping around in ones nice boats seems to wear off after a while- and boiler testing is always an issue, although the requirements never seem clear cut to me.

              She seems to be going well in the top photo- is that after conversion to electric? I used MFA geared motors in my boats but did find them pretty noisy. I changed to O ring drive on brass pulleys for two of them- much quieter. I suppose this wouldn't be an option with paddle drive as the reduction would be too great- and there is the problem of obtaining pulleys. The MFA units are very rugged and reliable.

              One consolation with the damage is that it gives the boat a nice patina of age and use -and it's still a very good looking boat.

              All the best,

              Ian

              #44601
              Tony Hadley
              Participant
                @tonyhadley

                Hi Bob

                Under steam the model performed extremely well, with a surprisingly good turn of speed. Run time was approx. 10minutes+

                Ian, I am unsure as to whether the photograph was taken with a temporary electric drive or whilst under steam. After the previous restoration, to give the model a test run, I hastily installed a temporary 550 motor which was far too fast. Looking at the top of the stack is a slight wisp, so it could have been under steam, I'm just not sure.

                Had a scare when giving it a trial run last time though, went to the lake alone in the evening, when along came a gang of 'likely lads' who started talking. They informed me they were recently out of prison and obviously I humoured them as best as I could. Fortunately a couple of youngish ladies they knew came along and started to talk to them and share their drinks. At this point I loaded my model into the car and thought that was a lucky escape. I seriously thought either the model or my wallet + credit card would be stolen — Moral of the story — Never sail alone.

                Thanks for the interest shown,

                Tony

                #44610
                Tony Hadley
                Participant
                  @tonyhadley

                  Ian,

                  The noise from these geared drives can be a problem, my other little paddler had a motor change last winter from a 12v Buehler to a 6v hobbys and the gear noise increased. It sounds as if I will be encountering the same problem with the Glasgow.

                  I did think of installing an old MP3 player with music playing to mask the noise, unfortunately my understanding is now this is classed as playing music to a public audience and needs some kind of public broadcasting licence. This idea has now been abandoned.

                  I'd even chose a tune — The Paddles on the Steamer — from the Postman Pat children's songs series.

                  Tony

                  #44611
                  Bob Abell 2
                  Participant
                    @bobabell2

                    Hello Tony

                    You could improvise a simple clicking device……Like a cigarette card in the spokes!……. or fit a proper sound unit

                    Bob

                    #44612
                    John W E
                    Participant
                      @johnwe

                      hi there

                      have you ever thought of using tooth belt drive? very quiet and a very positive drive. I have just been lookin on Cornwall Model Boats and they do a small selection of belts and pulleys to match but there is another Company who do a bigger selection cheaper and when I can locate it I will put the link on in case you are interested.

                      aye

                      John

                      #44613
                      John W E
                      Participant
                        @johnwe

                        **LINK**

                        this is the link to the belt drives and pulleys

                        aye

                        john

                        #44614
                        Tony Hadley
                        Participant
                          @tonyhadley

                          Thanks for the ideas,

                          Initially, I will stay with the use of the Graupner gears and see how bad the noise is before making any changes. As previous if I can stay with the gear set up, should I ever wish to return the steam plant to service it would be an easy exchange although not a lakeside job.

                          Reading Ian's comments, the noise is from the MFA motor and gear unit and not the Graupner gears.

                          Bob, how do you find the MFA unit in your Glasgow?

                          Tony

                          #44615
                          Bob Abell 2
                          Participant
                            @bobabell2

                            Hello Tony

                            The MFA geared motor is OK

                            I`m using 50:1 reduction gearbox and a 3:1 plastic chain drive speed up to the paddleshaft

                            Not sailed for a few months………Too busy!

                            Bob

                            #44616
                            Bob Abell 2
                            Participant
                              @bobabell2

                              This is my layout…..The chain drive is 2 to 1 speed up……..For 6v

                              speed up-1k.jpg

                              Bob

                              #44617
                              Ian Gardner
                              Participant
                                @iangardner62867

                                Hi Tony,

                                Sorry if I stirred up a hornet's nest over noisy gearboxes! The MFA units are very convenient, powerful and relatively cheap so, as with many things, its a personal preference and a matter of compromise. The drive is far more positive througha gearbox- I have had O rings pop off the pulleys in the middle of the lake until I got the tension just right- and that's very frustrating! I've often wondered about toothed belt drive.

                                It's good to see your conversion- my modelling activities have ground to a halt just at the moment. I'm hoping to get more motivated as winter draws on- as they say.

                                All the best…Ian

                                #44619
                                Tony Hadley
                                Participant
                                  @tonyhadley

                                  Further thoughts are – if the elecric drive system proves ok next summer, the plan for the following winter building season is to install a second MFA motor, split the paddleshaft and have individual paddle drives. These will be belt driven (thanks for the link John) supplemented with an electronic bit of wizardry which will adjust the paddle speed and direction according to the rudder position, thus allowing the model to 'turn on a sixpence'.

                                  For the 2014 sailing season the plan is just to enjoy the model with the single MFA electric power motor/gearbox and if it proves dissapointing, I will need to find a boiler inspector and take the return to steam option.

                                  Who knows Bob, I may just turn up at Etherow with the model.

                                  Tony

                                  #44620
                                  Tony Hadley
                                  Participant
                                    @tonyhadley

                                    Here is the next task for the build –

                                    The paddleboxes currently have the kit supplied transfers as paddlebox vents. I plan to drill and cut out actual vents. Whilst looking at this, I thought of modifying the design to a similar design to the ones on the Ramsgate paddle tug John Batey.

                                    What do you think of this design or should I stay with the original Graupner design? The photograph has a paper template of the proposed new design, before the mini-drill is set to work.

                                    paddle tug - john batey (2).jpg

                                    Original Graupner design.

                                    glasgow paddle box (1).jpg

                                    Proposed design, similar to John Batey.

                                    glasgow paddle box (2).jpg

                                    Tony

                                    #44627
                                    Ian Gardner
                                    Participant
                                      @iangardner62867

                                      Tony,

                                      I think your proposed paddle box vents will look much more elegant than the existing design and your plans for independant drive sounds interesting too.

                                      Ian

                                      #44715
                                      Tony Hadley
                                      Participant
                                        @tonyhadley

                                        Managed to modify the first paddle box to a design similar to the John Batey paddle tug. The paddle boxes are quite flimsy and cutting the vents is time consuming.

                                        glasgow de-steam (5).jpg

                                        Tony

                                        #44717
                                        Bob Abell 2
                                        Participant
                                          @bobabell2

                                          Hello Tony

                                          I did the same style of vents on my Glasgow…..I like your version, very much

                                          If you thought that was fiddly…..Try cutting out the rear decking!

                                          getting there!.jpg

                                          Very fiddly, but she`s worth it!

                                          Bob

                                          #44718
                                          Dave_P
                                          Participant
                                            @dave_p

                                            Thanks for the link John, a most interesting site with plenty of technical info.

                                            #44719
                                            Tony Hadley
                                            Participant
                                              @tonyhadley

                                              Hi Bob,

                                              If starting from a new kit, I would probably cut the rear decking as your model, however as the rear deck is with printed slots is already glued in place, I would probably only make things worse by removing this section of deck.

                                              Must say, I liked both yours and Phil Button's design for the vents, (Phil Button's were in the magazine) and this is where I got the inspiration to cut them out, instead of leaving as transfers. Although Phil made brand new wooden paddle boxes which would be far sturdier (and better) than the Graupner kit supplied items.

                                              Tony

                                              #44774
                                              Ian Gardner
                                              Participant
                                                @iangardner62867

                                                I missed this Tony and have just compared both photos- before and after. It's surprising how much difference it makes- and a great improvement.

                                                Ian

                                                #44775
                                                Tony Hadley
                                                Participant
                                                  @tonyhadley

                                                  Thank-you Ian, it is always re-assuring to have another pair of eyes look over a change from the original (kit manufacturers) design. Hopeful to finish the second paddle box either tonight or tomorrow night. Next steps are to make a motor stand and repair the rigging.

                                                  Tony

                                                  #44980
                                                  Tony Hadley
                                                  Participant
                                                    @tonyhadley

                                                    Ian,

                                                    Since the last post, I came across this November/December 1991 RCBM magazine, on ebay, which has an excellent item on the Glasgow by Ray Brigden. The model in the magazine puts many Glasgows in the shade (mine included) and the magazine is well worth obtaining for anyone who is building, owns or wishes to own the paddler. Whether Graupner's new owners will re-release the kit in the future is anyones guess.

                                                    glasgow rcbm.jpg

                                                    This photograph from the magazine item, is of the individual paddle wheel drive system which I will be looking to achieve in the future ( hopefully next winter). Ray uses meccano brackets to support the central shaft bearings. He does comment in the text that engineers will frown on the use of these brackets, but they do the job. For mine I will look for something better, but the idea looks right. The plan is to use a second MFA motor and make a similar conversion to plastic chain drive. Colin Bishop has commented in another thread about using gears within a 'sound box' (hull) and my thoughts are only to keep the existing Graupner 3:1 gear drive for the coming season. Bob has posted a similar, but single chain drive set-up earlier in the thread.

                                                    glasgow rcbm (2).jpg

                                                    Tony

                                                    #44981
                                                    Ian Gardner
                                                    Participant
                                                      @iangardner62867

                                                      This looks just the job Tony and I suppose with any sort of mechanical drive you will get some noise. One of our club members uses this type of plastic chain drive in all sorts of amazing boats with great success. The last I saw was a rather splendid paddle shark!

                                                      All the best,

                                                      Ian

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