Thames Sailing Barge Stuff

[Richard Cole 2Participant @richardcole2]

Thank you; I'll do that.

Richard

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard,

Drawings are available from SARIK by Dave Metcalf very good detail and Dave knows his stuff 😀 but she is a coastal barge very deep hull, very bulky compared with Veronica. The rig is rather small for the barge size so not a flyer !

Regards Ray

[Richard Cole 2Participant @richardcole2]

Hi Ray,

Many thanks for the info. Having also read several comments on facebook I'm now having to decide whether to re-rig the barge as a boomie or dispense with the boom and re-rig her as I think was intended.

Best wishes,

Richard

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard,

This is simple, remove the boom and replace it with a sprit to the top of the main sail and you have a loose footed mainsail.

The main sail is too small and should be down to the main hatch, but quite a lot of work, look in my album for examples for how it should look.

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 01/08/2020 21:37:04

[Richard Cole 2Participant @richardcole2]

Hello Ray,

Thanks for your advice. I have a boat that will never be a "flyer" but it will be fun nevertheless to have something different to work on. I've made a start and removed the boom!

Best wishes,

Richard

[Andy Stone 1Participant @andystone1]

Hi Ray, your new build is looking good, A nice light hull, It should go well.

I can't remember if i mentioned it before but iHave heaps of problems when turning my Windsor belle, when the wind is coming from astern, Ive removed the staysail which i think hinders turning thinking too much sail area for the wind to catch on a turn. Ive also added a further winch servo to control the mizzen hoping i can push the stern around more. Thinking about it I wonder if I should use Y leads and use the same stick movements to control both Mizzen and rudder on the same stick. Any thoughts ?

Thanks

Andy

[Dave SansomParticipant @davesansom26019]

Andy

I think ….

In a real size TSB the mizzen is attached to rudder to assist turning rudder

So in scale yes connect

Dave

[Dave SansomParticipant @davesansom26019]

Andy

I think ….

In a real size TSB the mizzen is attached to rudder to assist turning rudder

So in scale yes connect

Dave

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Andy,

Good to hear from you again 😀 how big is your rudder extension on the Belle ? I actually don't think the mizen sail actually does much to propel the barge, as Andy says it's normally attached to the rudder blade.I

If it's really breezy weather helm is normal as the rig overpowers the rudder I find.

I suppose it's winter where you are, but still warm ??

Regards Ray

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi,

I also have a mizzen sail connected to the rudder plate. Mr Ivor Bittle offers another solution where he controls the mizzen sail using other servos. It is difficult to mix the settings of individual servos, and efficiency is probably problematic.

I tried it, but eventually I went back to a simple implementation. There are several problems, especially the length of the servo levers vs length of Mizzen boom. In addition, I had little space in the model for this design (the servos would be located next to the rudder servo).Simple design is more reliable!!

greetings

Tom

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Here are a couple of photos for Richard for his Celia Jane re-rig

The head stick & the sprit collar round the mast which also needs a wire support from above.

Hope this helps 😀

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 05/08/2020 17:41:55

[Richard Cole 2Participant @richardcole2]

Thank you Ray. That's very helpful.

[Andy Stone 1Participant @andystone1]

Hi Dave, Not had a lot of success attaching the mizzen to the rudder, It seems to do what its meant to but still limiting so i thought i would give it a go trying to control the mizzen better with a servo, probably a bit overkill using a sailing winch servo but by heavens it really whaps the mizzen around and gives a much better control. Yet to try weather unsettling here

Regards Andy

[Andy Stone 1Participant @andystone1]

Hi Ray,

Weather a bit cool, for us anyway to try things out, The big pond is a bit choppy though Windsor Belle handles 30klm winds pretty well, Its just i don't !while its cool. Ill measure the rudder extension later. I agree the mizzen most probably doesn't do much to propel the barge But I find attaching the mizzen to the rudder less effective than its should be, The Rudder does drag the mizzen around but I think having control of the Mizzen maybe/ is effectively having a larger rudder, using the wind in linking the two together, I see your weathers warming up at last.

Tom, I'm going to use Y leads to connect both Mizzen and rudder together, looks very effective on the bench

Regards Andy

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Time for Cullamix to tow her new swim head barge tomorrow, with ballast of 5 block pavings in the hold, thought I'd put it on this thread as it's where I described th build, the barge now weighs in at 30 lbs & Cullamix weighs 35lbs powered by a 6volt geared Decaperm with a 75mm prop.

Test pool very useful for a dip after the boats 😀

Regards Ray

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Andy,

I tried to send you App 7 from Mr. Ivor Bittle's booklet on mizzen sail control. Unfortunately, his site no longer exists, his models have been sold. So I decided put part of the article here.

.So I put short excerpt here.

If the mizzen left is on the rudder channel and is mixed with the mainsail by mixing THRO into AIL and the rate set to 50%, it can be made to move backwards when the main is sheeted out. In a similar way the mizzen right servo on the remaining channel can be mixed using another mix so that its arm also moves backwards when the mainsail is sheeted out. This sheets out the mizzen and is shown in 1. When the main, ie THRO is sheeted in both servos can be move forwards by giving them a 50% rate as shown in 2 to sheet the mizzen in. In this way both servos move forwards together or back together when the main is sheeted in or out. If the sheeting cords are set up correctly for length the mizzen can operate in conjunction with the other sails of the rig and help to drive the barge.

Now we can make provision to set the mizzen to windward. This involves letting the aileron stick have an input to the servos. Go to THROW ADJUST and give the AIL stick 50% travel in both directions. The two 50% throws ensure that the servo cannot overrun. Operation of the aileron stick will add 50% throw to the mizzen left but will not move the mizzen right. The last mix can be used to mix AIL into the mizzen right channel which must be set to either +50% either way or –50 % either way as required. Then the mizzen can drive the barge in normal sailing and can be set to windward during a tack. In addition the right hand stick can move to left or right to set the mizzen independently of the main.

The mizzen can now be set to windward to help the barge tack. Normally the barge would tack from beating close to the wind. One would initiate the tack by bearing away a little to increase speed and then turn to rudder to make the head turn to windward. The mizzen can be set to windward using the AIL stick to help with the tack by weather-cocking. It adds to the authenticity of the model as a scale model.

I am beginning to think that the balance of the barge can be improved by using this facility to alter the angle of the mizzen independently of the main when needed. It may be more important than being able to set the mizzen to windward for a tack. But I need a steady wind to find out for certain.

………………………………..

To all .. I tried to copy the booklet some years ago , unfortunately not all the images were copied into the text. Maybe one way would be via  Dropbox .I had chance to  wrote directly to the Author, and then tested the settings with mixes on the Turnigy 2.4GHz transmitter. It works, but above all there is a problem with the length of the levers on the individual servos, in addition, it takes up space in the model. The short levers were not functional. Unfortunately, these sites no longer exist today, the Author probably died.He had several articles at >Modelbarge  .info < site, sorely …these sites do not exists too .. 

Tom

Edited By tomarack on 08/08/2020 21:33:49

[Andy Stone 1Participant @andystone1]

Hi Tom,

Much appreciated for sending the information. Its a good read and makes a lot of sense when digested

Ive done just the same configuration on the model galleon I built and i found it works a treat, I love the idea of being able to come to a full stop when turning and heading right into the wind. It looks amazing ! For my barge "Windsor Belle" I used two servos for the mainsail and rudder and a further Sailing winch to control the mizzen. I have connected the Rudder and Mizzen which is 11 inches deep by 6 inches across by a set of "Y" leads which seem to work quite well on the stand. As yet to be trialled when our weather improves. I think being able to control the mizzen and rudder together together act as a large rudder using the wind and water to complete a turn.

Regards Andy

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All,

Ivor was member of our club and is a gifted model maker, but he has now moved to the West Country, yesterday the lighter had it's maiden voyage behind Cullamix , and looks interesting beside John's staysail sailing barge as they are the same 1/24th scale.

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 10/08/2020 17:54:55

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi. Ray, she looks good on the water with her barge, the picture with the TSB shows the size of the original TSB.

We are still struggling with a bad weed infestation at the moment, so off to do some more clearing today.

Regards.

Eddie

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Hi Ray,

thanks for info about Ivor, his pages were very helpful.

When I wrote to Ivor about my first model of a barge (Capricorn) in the spring of 2014, he wrote to me in an e-mail that he was 86 years old and that he wanted to transfer his original site to "Ivorbittle.com". This new site ceased to function probably in the spring of this year …

greetings

Tom

let me put here his post scriptum from the letter (04.16.2014)

Post script. I think that the evolution of barge racing was good for
full sized barges but a mixed blessing for modellers. The full sized
barge racing produced faster hulls at the expense of load carrying but
it led to rapid development of the rig and how the barge was handled.
The legacy for those modellers who want to race barges is that, if you
want to win, you make models of the few boats like Geralda. In fact,
now you have to design your own barge if you want to win and that is
contrary to the whole concept of building and racing scale barges.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Tom,

The competitive racing at all costs led to many of the big name barges being shaken to bits by the big rigs fitted for speed, I know that's what happened to Veronica 😢

As you say the Giralda hull takes some beating my 30" version cleaned up at last year's AMBO finals 😀

regards Ray

[Dave SansomParticipant @davesansom26019]

That was last year Ray 🥂

There's a new boy in town (next year) 😎😎😎

[Dave SansomParticipant @davesansom26019]

I bought it off of Richard C.

He did tell me the builders name

(Forgot to write it down)

Will find out before we meet next year

Dave IOW

[tomarackParticipant @tomarack]

Nice boat!!

[Dave SansomParticipant @davesansom26019]

Thanks Tom

[Author]

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