TEV Wahine 1/35 Build

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Aluminium is prone to severe corrosion problems, especially when salt water is involved.

Bob

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Richard,

I haven't (yet) tried it myself, but a chap I know in Sweden, Torbjörn Skalski, clad one of his scratch-built hulls in aluminium sheet (his source was disposable oven trays, but then his hull was nowhere near the size of yours) cut into hull plate shapes.

You'll find some photos in these parts of his build thread on a Swedish modellers' forum:

http://modellbygge.ifokus.se/articles/5416bc96ce12c47873000055-aurora-borealis-del-4

http://modellbygge.ifokus.se/articles/5436610ece12c41e270021af-aurora-borealis-del-5

I'm afraid all accompanying text is in Swedish only, but the photos should pretty much speak for themselves. I've seen the finished model on the water at a model convention, and it looked very nice indeed; also, at least as far as I know from what the chap in question has told me, he has had no issues in particular with this method of construction.

To the best of my knowledge he only sails his models in sweet water, though …

Mattias

 

Edited By Banjoman on 27/05/2017 11:06:49

[John W EParticipant @johnwe]

hi there

I have the same concerns as the previous post – about the expansion rates of the aluminium and the timber. I have been trying to do some Google research and you will have done so as well – I didn't realise that aluminium expands at such a rate and also contracts and is prone to temperature so much. When they use it on lifesize vessels they have to build special expansion joints on the superstructure to accommodate its movement,. Bit experiment may pay dividends.

Lithoplate, which I have used – and I must confess don't like using it that much – I found it difficult to glue to timber – even with epoxy. After a while I could get a scalpel blade to part the aluminium lithoplate from the timber.

John

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Thanks guys.

I really appreciate the help, I must confess I'm at a loss with this, I spent sooo long fixated on the fact I was using Styrene.

I look at models like that of Peter Davies-Garner that have successfully used Styrene to plate a large hull but the thing is they don't have the heat we do in summer.

I then hear people say Styrene breaks down over time, I have seen this first hand but only if not painted and only if in UV light for long periods, correct me if I'm wrong.

I have to admit when I said the plates fell off my other model I was using a good contact glue which is a mistake to be honest in warm climates.

The epoxy I use is one that is a staple of the joinery industry here in the lower hemisphere and it is an excellent product, it never lets go and I have glued all sorts of metal to wood with it in the furniture industry for years with no problem but again how much movement am I going to get bonding a average 50mm x 250mm plate .6mm thick to a fibre-glassed surface, that's a thing to remember as well its not raw wood but glassed.

Aluminium was a suggestion made by another modeller that had not considered the scale of mine, I have designed and built aluminium boats in the past so am aware to a degree of the problems of expansion however I had assumed that due to the thin nature of the Aluminium it would not be an issue if I left .6mm gaps between the plates for the weld seams which in turn had some give in them.

I'm almost contemplating making my own epoxy resin/paper concoction (like Formica without the high pressure) but it's a LOT of extra work.

It's a puzzle no doubt about it, but I am adamant I am plating the hull somehow.

By the way this is only a fresh water model, it was never intended to be in salt water.

I translated that Swedish site and read it, that's exactly the look I want but of course welded,

I just had a thought I might try, plating it in sections along the length as per expansion plan BUT every 4th plate in .5mm ply to absorb some of the movement.

I might need to try this.

Back to the drawing board.

 

I

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:13:19

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:14:56

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

For anyone wanting to look at specs this is the glue
http://atlcomposites.com.au/icart/products/3/images/main/Techniglue%20R%2060.pdf

 

I get .13 of a mm per plate with a 20 degree temperature  change, I can work with that

at 10 degrees its only .065mm, might have to just avoid really hot days.

Also 40 degrees here is rare , and in summer only, you would not go out sailing in 40 degrees or even 35 degrees here, so in reality probably only looking at a range of say 24 degrees which is our normal temperature to say 32 degrees so a 12 degree change in summer only.

Another factor I just thought of is the rippling in the plate although subtle it makes the plate sort of corrugated which may in itself act as a sort of spring to allow movement

 

Thoughts?

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:35:57

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:47:30

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:52:45

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 08:58:36

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Richard

I suggest you do a test piece first

It will be very informative and interesting

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I wonder if we aren't getting into a bit of over engineering here? Any material with a high coefficient of expansion has the potential to give problems and both styrene and aluminium fall into that category.

My inclination would be to use 0.5mm birch ply, (sometimes marketed as 1/64th ply) it is thin, takes an excellent finish and easily worked. You could seal the exterior side and undercoat it before cutting out the plates and should have no problem attaching them forever with the epoxy. It is also amenable to bending in two dimensions to some extent, probably enough to accommodate hull contours.

Colin

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Too expensive for me.
and would not be able to form the ripples, I had considered that.

I have a  couple of sheets of that and we pay $90.00 for a 1200mm x 1200 sheet here so that's $720.00

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 10:32:51

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Also another reason for wanting to use something rigid are the upstands around the decks and bulwarks etc, I don't want to risk damaging the thin plates protruding upwards of 8mm above the decks as well as they have to support railing etc.

The hull although shapely has a very high percentage of almost developable shapes, meaning most are almost rolled sections, really only the Oxter, Bilge and Bow ends in the flare that require a bit of shaping.

If the aluminium experiment does not work all I will do is use hi build primer and sand the plate ripples into it and use epoxy paste to do the weld seams which is what I was originally going to do.

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 29/05/2017 10:42:45

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think it has been mentioned before but high quality artist's card also takes a good finish when sealed and that is cheap. You could use something stronger for the upper strake to support the railings etc.

As far as the ripples are concerned might it be possible to stick thin cord or thread vertically around the hull where the frames are which could be used to represent the high points with the centre of the plate pushed against the hull? The plates would be bedded in epoxy to take up the hollows at each end adjacent to the thread.

Colin

[John W EParticipant @johnwe]

hi there,

Just as a side thought – and God knows we have a few of them – why do we really need to apply plating to the side of the hull and also assimilate the rippling. The reason I ask that I spent a lot of time researching the plating for HMS Exeter – then I applied the plating to the hull using styrene sheet. It took me a long time to get it right. When you have a couple of coats of paint on the model it becomes less visible and, if you stand say 2-3 feet away – you can just making the plating out. When I sailed the model on the lake – one had no idea at all that it was plated. It was only when the model was on a stand and people were asking questions about it and I was pointing it out that they realised. So, can you see what I mean? If your model is going to spending a lot of time being viewed by the public and out of the water, yes, it will be worth the effort. But, if it is going to live its life as a 'normal' model – i.e. in and out of the water and enjoy the sailing of it – it may not be worth going to the effort of detailing the plating/applying plating

See if you can spot the plating on my pic..

John

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Hi John

I know where your coming from but I always said this was a museum quality build and I am sticking to it.
I realise that some builders do build purely for looks at a distance and may not understand my reasoning for full detail and I am prepared to take flak for that however that's not how I roll and I am sticking to my guns and what I feel is right on that.
I believe in doing the best job I can and at this scale plating is far to obvious to be left off especially as she had very obvious some would say ugly pronounced distortion, I mean where do you draw the line then?
If only worrying about how it looks on the water then I might as well not worry about half the detail on the ship.

I am building this as a Class A model and I intend to show in competition.

Keep in mind this is nearly 3 times the scale of your Exeter model.

In my mind ships never have perfect flat hulls,even though most models look like that I don't personally agree with it but that is my opinion only.

In my mind the imperfections and character of a ship are in all those details. and at any scale over 1/35 it should be in there if the builder is able to undertake the job.

The only time I sacrifice scale is if the result is too weak to withstand handling.

Just my humble opinion.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard

I know where your coming from on the scale fidelity of the plating on such a large project, but my main concern would be finding a simple way of creating the effect, I would airbrush the plating lines very lightly, as Bluebird has said who's going to look under the ship ?? Just a thought you have a long way to go

Regards Ray

[Gareth JonesParticipant @garethjones79649]

Hi Richard,

I think you may have a valid concern about the effect of temperature on the styrene plating. When I was painting the hull of Spider J it was done outside and after I had sprayed it matt black and left it in the sun to dry between coats I could see the plating lifting in bubbles and buckles. Whether this was due to trapped air bubbles or just expansion of the styrene, I don't know. I guess either effect would be made worse since the black hull would soak up the heat more effectively. The temperature at the time was probably no more than 25 degrees which is not often achieved and rarely exceeded where I live in East Yorkshire. When the hull was put back in the shade the plating resumed its normal shape without any apparent permanent damage. However I would not like to risk too many cycles of that sort of environment.

I am not planning to change the model now. The plating is stuck on with epoxy resin and it would be a pain to take off and even more of a pain to put some alternative plating on. The scale of Spider J is 1:16 so the plating lines and rivets are an integral part of the model and should be clearly visible. I don't think it will be a long term problem while sailing but I will be careful if the model is outside on display at a show or regatta and try and make sure I pick a suitable spot out of the sun or use some sort of sunshade. Unfortunately I don't know the answer to the problem. Maybe your model will be less susceptible if it is painted in lighter colours. Work is going to resume on Spider J now Serica is virtually complete. I will let you know if I see any signs of the plating lifting again.

Regards

Gareth

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Richard,

The matter of competitions aside, and also not counting models built on commission for someone else, in my opinion the only truly valid measure of success in a build is personal satisfaction with the result. If you know that taking a given shortcut will mean that every time you see the model, you will, even ever so slightly, wince inwardly, then that shortcut is not for you.

To my mind it therefore matters not a whit that for example a plating effect might not be discernible when the model is out on the water, if it satisfies you to know it is there. So, it will take you longer to finish. That just means you get to enjoy the fun of your build for that much longer.

Please note that I am not saying that it would be wrong to save work by using shortcuts, or that only the truest-to-scale models are worthy, or any such thing. Again, what counts to me is that the builder is happy with the result — and on that point, we are all our own yardsticks.

Commissions and competitions are, obviously, different; for the former, it would be a question of balance between customer satisfaction and the cost of the thing; for the latter, it will be the judging criteria that count.

Mattias

 

Edited By Banjoman on 30/05/2017 10:39:16

[John W EParticipant @johnwe]

Hi ya Richard

I have been spending a bit of time doing a bit research on different adhesives – no doubt you will have done so yourself. One of the things that came to mind – I wonder what the aero industry use when they glue their aluminium components together and also to other materials. This adhesive must withstand extreme temperatures/heat and movement without coming apart. The other thing, when I was doing research that kept coming up a lot were motor cycle forums – people asking what glues to use for bonding aluminium and materials to carbon fibre. I know you will have your choice of which way you are going to go but something you may not have thought of and if you haven't thought of this – it may give you an area to look into.

Best of luck – I admire you for what you are undertaking and it will be worth it in the end. Cos, I know how I felt when people asked me questions about HMS Exeter. One of the comments was I should have put it in a glass case and let the Maritime Museum have it – worth all the hard work that is.

 

http://www.henkel-adhesives.com/com/content_data/322139_ASA13010_RW_FL_MRO_Composite_Screen_081.pdf

John

Edited By bluebird on 30/05/2017 17:17:39

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi All

The adhesive that springs to mind is Stabilit Express by Pattex but the quantities you need maybe prohibitive, used by the RC car & Helicoptor boys, its pretty good stuff

Regards Ray

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Thanks all

I am going to do some tests on a long strip of ply and bond the Ali to it.

I have looked up all the product as you have mentioned in the above and none of them are available in my country,Pattex is but alas we can't get the Stabilit Express .

JB weld is one I can get that people seem to rave about and another one that I can try in Go2 Gel from Loctite though it's expensive.

None of them address the issue of combating the oxidisation of the Ali so testing it will be.

The stuff I already have 4 litres of as I mentioned before is a industrial epoxy and I will try that first as I already have it.

As long as I key the back really well and degrease it with denatured alchohol right before bonding it should be ok, as for expansion…we will see if my plan works.

The epoxy of mine has worked well in the past for ali laminated kicks on cabinets an d such so we will see.

Polyurethane glue is another very strong glue that is not rigid , I know that will work as we use it for a ton of things in joinery, messy due to the foaming but boy does it stick like shit to a blanket.

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Yep the Polyurethane glue does it.

Just going to see which one gives the best result long term, Sika TechGrip or Gorilla Glue, both are polyurethane and have very strong bonds with the ability to move.

Keep your chin up guys, you are certainly having a bad few weeks over there, we are thinking of you.

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 04/06/2017 02:56:32

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard

Has there been any progress on the Wahine ? there has been discussion on the forum regarding larger models of aircraft carriers and your the man who knows about building big  

Regards Ray

Edited By Ray Wood 2 on 15/12/2017 13:36:31

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Hi Ray
Sadly no I have been working insanely, first I had to stop work on it due to being made redundant and then once I went back to same company I have been working 12 hours a day 7 days a week to help teach out the course, I hope things start to improve early next year.

I might get something done over Xmas …I'm still in my 40's so work still.
Only to happy to help with any queries but don't get much time to search forums much

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 19/12/2017 06:20:39

Edited By Richard H Dunn on 19/12/2017 06:21:02

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard

Glad to hear from you, the Wahine model can wait I'm sure ! yes working to earn a crust comes first. Now at the tender age of 62 and probably trying to work for another 10 years I wish I'd built a decent fullsize boat when I was in my 40's, but hindsight is a wonderful thing, Enjoy some Christmas building in that workshop

All the best from a frosty UK Ray

[Richard H DunnParticipant @richardhdunn]

Hello everyone

Just thought I better say something, I have been very busy with work for a while but can see this coming back into life very soon.

Been busy doing other modelling jobs for money…the 3d kind of modelling.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Richard,

I will be glad to see your epic get underway again 😀 I find any hobby related work for money soon makes it a chore, and going fishing becomes a good idea !

For those recent to the forum, go back to the beginning of this thread 😮

Regards Ray

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Ricard

Got up to page 10 of your blog and will catch up some more later. Modelling extraordinaire!

Couldn't agree more with Ray. Loads of people have asked my why I don't do this for a living and of course it would no longer be a hobby. I would rather go to work!

Richard, do you mean 3D printing kind of modelling?

Still grey here in Mallorca but not quite so windy. That's five days in a row but it always looks nice in the brochures!

Tim R

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