Resurgam Submarine

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody. I'm building a tinplate model of Resurgam. It makes for a nice model as it allows a 4 x 10 inch hatch giving plenty of access in a 30 inch hull (a type 7 would probably be some 6 feet long!). Main reason for the question is about plans, dimensions and detail. There only seems to be four reliable sources and even these are vague simply because of the definition. There are the two classic photographs side on and at 45 degrees, the plan and elevation drawings from Garrets patent and a line drawing from the Graphic newspaper. The Hardman static model and the Birkenhead replica are brilliant representations but miss some essential details. Would just like to discuss the matter with anybody interested. Just so you know my model is now well advanced and I'll post a picture if I can work out how to do it!

Regards to all,

Len

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Tin Plate Static Diving

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hi Len there is the small scale cutaway model at the Merseyside Maritime Museum and the full size replica at Woodside Ferry Birkenhead .There is also a detailed large scale model at the Williamson art Gallery ship collection and David French of the Model Submariners Association has built a working model . Which detail are you looking for ?

Dave Wooley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Len

As Dave says there is quite a bit of information available for the Resurgam both on line and in archives and it would be a fairly easy job to retro-design the entire vessel.

Paul

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Thanks Dave and Paul for your replies. Very kind. The devil is in the detail! Did she have a four blade prop or a three blade prop? The Woodside Ferry replica has quite 'aerodynamic ' hydroplanes whilst the original photos show them to be flat plates. The outer wooden casing is very sculptured in the replicas but not substantiated by the original photographs. The patent drawings (which I used for my model) show the hydroplane shaft running straight through the hull in plan view. In elevation, this would put the shaft straight through the middle of the boiler! I fully agree there is a lot of information about Resurgam but it tends to be the same old thing and not very good when interrogated. For example history tells us that prior to sailing she undertook diving trials in the dock. How? Resurgum dived dynamically, not easy to do in a dock! Nothing seems very clear on this job and I welcome any comment.

Best Regards,

Len

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Len

Firstly can we confirm that we are discussing Resurgam 2 in which case contemporary photographs show that the vessel had a four bladed propeller.

Without further detailed research I cant answer the question regarding the hydroplanes however a brief look at the elevation drawing would lead me to assume that some kind of offset gearing system had been designed to manipulate the diving planes.

A mechanically operated geared system working in the spaces on either side of the boiler would be the most obvious solution especially when you consider the amount of pressure being exerted on the control surfaces.

Regarding the testing of the vessel, this took place in Liverpools Great Float (not a dock) the Great Float accounts for most of the Liverpool / Wirral shore lines and covers an area of 110 acres so there is plenty of vertical and horizontal space within which to test a small dynamic diving boat (see pic)

I hope this helps with your build

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 14/02/2014 11:39:41

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hi Len have you access to the book Farther of the Submarine by William Scanlan Murphy published by William Kimber and co limited ISBN 0-7183-0654-6,. many of your questions are explained in that book . Also some years ago I visited the launch site in Wallasey dock of the Resurgam which still exists including the slewing ring for the crane and yes diving trials in the dock were undertaken.

Dave Wooley

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Paul and Dave, thanks for all that . It's kind of you to comment. Now some food for thought. Not convinced about the four blade prop. Does anybody have a clear photograph? Resurgam's internals are not an issue from a model building point of view (because I'm certainly not clever enough to try installing a steam engine!), but, when plans don't stack up you start to question them. The longitudinal illustration you kindly sent me Paul is the classic from the old literature. If you look at the cross-section illustrations belonging to the same diagram you'll see that the view in front of the boiler shows considerable wood cladding on the hull whereas it should just be an inch of steel plate! I question old magazine illustrations very carefully and prefer to believe in photographs (at least back then they didn't have photoshop)! As regards initial trial dives I am convinced Garret would have done these statically in the Wallasey dock with his ballast tank. It consumes half his submarine. Its the Boiler!

As regards the wooden cladding, the Birkenhead replica and classic models seem far too sculptured on the shoulders above the hydroplanes compared with the available photographs. Wonder what you think?

Now at stage of ballast, flotation and stability trials in the 'Great Colne Bathroom Dock'. Some pictures posted (hopefully) Len

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Len

I hope you don't mind me posting this?…….The only connection with your thread is that it is a submarine story and my model looked like the Resurgam!

I once made a tin plate submarine, from three tin cans soldered together, end on, with an Andrews Liver salts tin for the conning tower

I got the design from a Boy's Own mag in 1953…..I was only 16 then

Underneath was a non return valve which let water out via a rear pointing tube…..but not in

At the top of the hull, was a float valve, which let water in, but not out

In the conning tower was a wire basket, in which was placed a block of Calcium Carbide

The sub was placed in the bath which settled down, letting water in, via the top valve, until the water reached the Carbide!

Carbide and water don't like each other and a high pressure gas is produced!

The pressure closed the inlet valve and forced the water out of the sub, through the bottom pipe which propelled the sub forward

When the inside water level had dropped below the carbide block, the reaction stopped and water entered the sub once more, through the top valve

The cycle was repeated…..Clever?…eh?

Did it work?……Don't know…..Carbide was not on sale anymore!…..Doh!

Thank you, Len

Bob

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hello Len according to Garrett's own notes Resurgam was cladded with timber amidships as per the model at Birkenhead and as Paul has mentioned the Resurgam was fitted with a 4 bladed propeller but the original was removed and it is not clear whether the replacement was 3 or 4 blades . In the past I have found the patent office in Liverpool an amazing place to source information . If you are inclined to visit the office in William Brown street you will not be disappointed but be prepared to spend some time sifting through the various publications of the time and the patents. best of luck

Dave Wooley

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Len

Is this of any use?

It shows a four bladed pro

Bob

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody, thanks for all your mails. I am really trying to post some pictures to continue the discussion but it seems impossible on this site. Sounds silly but I post pictures all day long on other sites. Why is it so difficult and unclear here? Very very frustrated. Len >>

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Please help! Anybody! How do you post pictures on this site.? A very frustrated Len.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

This is just a test to see how long this site takes to respond. 10 o'clock pm 19/2/14. Len

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Len,

To post pictures you need to create an album or reference an image holding website. It is not possible to upload an image directly into a post. Check out the FAQ section on the home page.

Any further questions please ask me.

Colin

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Dear Colin, Thanks for the guidance and indeed your rapid response, I now have an album with three pictures!

Besr Regards, Len

Which can be seen here: http://www.modelboats.co.uk/albums/member_album.asp?a=30853

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 20/02/2014 23:29:18

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody. Thanks for all your comments. Here are two pictures of my model. Will pick up the discussion shortly. Len

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

That's a very nice model, Len….Well done indeed!

It'll be a shame to paint it really, but as it is, the reflections are distracting

It's a pity you didn't post your PM on the forum, others would have been interested and who knows, someone may have one of those mini subs in the junk drawer?

Bob

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hello Len very nice indeed.

Dave Wooley

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody, thanks for your kind comments. The intent is to veneer the central hull with oak, paint her all matt black and then attempt to make her look rusty. I can't find a clear picture of Resurgam's stern showing the prop. The 45 degree angle photo that Bob kindly sent clearly shows two blades at 120 degrees (3 blades). There appears to be a third blade in the picture but it's not quit in line for a 4 blade prop and indeed shouldn't be visible because it would be behind the lower rudder. I'm sure it's a reflection on the image. Anyway, props are easily changed! My major concern now is the ballast, flotation and stability trials. Port to starboard I don't think is going to be a problem. I think fore and aft is not going to be good! Will let you all Know. Best Regards, Len

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Found a few interesting pictures of Resurgam , Len

Click here…

**LINK**

Bob

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Bob, Thanks for that. The Images from 3H Consulting of the actual wreck are excellent. Their map of the wreck site shows item AO11 in the debris field labelled as 'propellor blade'. The picture just shows a rusty bit of plate on the ocean floor.There's not much to be learnt from it other than the assumption that if she did have a four bladed prop, it's only a three bladed one now! Going back to the original 45 degree picture I think it shows Resurgam had a left handed prop. What do you think? Best Regards, Len

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hello Len According to Garrett's own log Resurgam was experiencing mechanical problems after leaving the Mersey and pulled in to Rhyl . It is here in what was Rhuddlan Foundry a new smaller propeller was made but there is no hard evidence as to the number of blades.

Dave Wooley

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Dave, thanks for that. I'm sure you 're right and I apologize for being a complete anorak on this issue! Back in the 80's (me and the misses) had a weekend in Rhyl specifically to search for Resurgam info. We went to the Rhuddlan Foundry site but nothing existed. Went to the local library but found nothing new in their records and even contacted a few of the local old peoples homes just in case there might have been an old gentleman with local knowledge. Zip. My belief from the few photos available is that Resurgam set off with a 3 bladed left hand prop. If she chucked a blade early on then this would certainly create 'problems' and she'd put into a local port (Rhyl). As you say, what was fitted thereafter is not known. But it will be! We now know where she is! Thanks to Keith Hurley the diver that found her and 3H Consulting who mapped the site we now have an absolute treasure box waiting to be opened. She's only 15 meters of water and about 6 miles off land. The prop no longer exists but the hub will tell everything! Best Regards, Len.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody, the diving trials are now complete and I'm very pleased with the results! I removed the rudders, hydroplanes prop etc. and sealed all the holes. She has a 1kg keel fitted externally at the bottom of the hull and was eventually fitted with 4kg of internal balllast to bring her to the correct water line with the ballast tanks full of air. Venting the tanks via the umbilical rubber tube sent her down surprisingly quickly and equally surprising was the amount of puff down the pipe to bring her back up! (Simple physics tells me it was only half a psi in a foot of water so I must be getting old!). Lateral stability was excellent. Fore and aft was not bad and is now much less of a concern. When pushing down the bow or stern she wanted to recover and indeed did recover until the internal ballast shifted and I couldn't experiment any more. I now need to get on with the internals but it's good to know the maximum installation weight. It will take a little while before I can post again on the actual model but do please comment on any Resurgam matters. Len

[Author]

Posts