Problems with Electronics

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Problems with Electronics

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10 October 2009 at 11:02 #23474
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
From recent posts on this Forum and others it seems apparent that a lot of people are having problems and queries associated with their electronic kit.

Way back in the days of 27Mhz and 40mhz you could buy your transmitter, receiver, servos and speed controller and if they were all from reputable manufacturers and you connected them up according to the instructions everything would pretty much work out of the box. I am still using a couple of Futaba M series sets which continue to work perfectly. Mixers were mechanical or you just rigged up a couple of microswitches to cut out the inboard prop when the rudder was hard over – no electronics, you could actually see it happening!

Now of course we have super duper 2.4 gigahertz sets and intelligent speed controllers which are supposed to be the bee’s knees – but it doesn’t always seem to work out that way does it?

2.4Ghz has many advantages in that crystals are no longer required but the frequency is also in use for all sorts of other devices which can potentailly stick a spanner in the works. At home my wireless computer router signal can be corrupted if I turn on the gadget which sends TV signals from the downstairs set top box to the upstairs TV. And if the microwave in the kitchen is turned on then it scrambles the TV signals. And of course 2.4Ghx is no good for controlling submarines as the signals cannot penetrate the water.

Then we seem to have problems with binding Rxs. One to one OK – usually; but if you want to use one TX with several RXs in different boats people say it aint quite so straightforward!

And then there are the speed controllers, some of which appear to be rather temperamental when hooked up to certain receivers (I’m sure Dave M will explain why this can happen and why his products are not affected!)

Computerised TXs are also a big step forward with model memory settings but most of them were originally designed for aircraft and helicopter applications so trying to apply the mixer features in a marine situation can be problematical to say the least!

I’m not trying to knock progress of which there has been a great deal in recent years but newcomers to the hobby, which we really do need(!), seem to find it all very confusing and offputting.

So what do others think?

Colin
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10 October 2009 at 11:02 #5054
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
Is it all getting too complicated?
10 October 2009 at 13:04 #23475
Bob Abell 2
Participant
@bobabell2
You are quite there Colin……I have yet to venture into this new fangled radio gear…Never thought I`d see the day when technology would leave me behind!

Soon I shall be dipping my toe in the water with the other mysteries of the modelling world……….Brushless motors, special controllers and LiPo batteries……….Looks very expensive too and I`m in for a right picnic!

Bob
10 October 2009 at 17:18 #23478
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Yes its all too much. Thats why I stick to 27m and only 2 functions. Works for me. I am dabbling in brushless very soon, but really it only amounts to a different sort of motor and controller, and LiPo is really only for flight applications I am thinking. Perhaps when the technology has matured a bit especially in regard to possible longevity issues they will become more common, but ..

If you do get the fancy stuff then I am afraid that theres a lot of reading and practice to do, and that is possibly where it all goes wrong. Essentially these new sets are small computers and you have to know all the ins and out`s…and how many people DO know the i&o..not many judging by the posts!

Perhaps too many people get carried away with the clever stuff when a few simple micro-switches operated on full left or right-with-trim would suffice??

Ashley
11 October 2009 at 09:04 #23486
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Luddite clap-trap. Three seasoned Internet Forum users complaining about the complexity of computers??

I have issues with 2.4GHz as well – largely along the same lines as Admiral Bish.

As Colin says, computerised sets are designed for aeroplanes and helicopters where adjustable travel volume, exponential and differential throw and free channel mixing are probably useful. I don’t have the need for any of this or for model memory etc so I don’t have a computer radio. I bought one for the business to test our stuff with it but I didn’t like it at all and passed it on to our Design Consultant. If you don’t need one then don’t buy one.

Many electronic speed controllers are just car units with the word
“Marine” stuck over the word “Car”. That’s why they have internal BEC,
braking and half-power reverse. Properly-designed and manufactured model boat speed controllers should do what they say on the tin. If they don’t then they aren’t – and vice versa. Having said that, at least half of those sent back to us for repair are actually working properly – one wonders about the users.

As for 2 channel radios and microswitches at FSD, are you crazy?? You can buy a new 6 channel 2.4GHz non-computer radio for less than thirty quid, and setting up microswitches is a pain in the backside compared with just plugging in a proper relay-based R/C switch. You can have up to four selectable latching functions from one stick – you won’t do that with a microswitch and servo, and you don’t have to steer the model round in tight circles to switch the lights on either!

Welcome to the 21st century.

Rant for today over.
11 October 2009 at 10:20 #23487
Colin Bishop
Moderator
@colinbishop34627
A masterly exposition as I would have expected Dave, but in a way it reinforces my original points.

If someone comes to yourself for advice they will be asked what they are trying to do and then given sage counsel as to what gear to buy, what to beware of and here’s the wiring diagram you need m’lud! Admirable and really very, very useful.

But of course a lot of people are unaware of the ACTion Oracle and they buy what their local model shop suggests which could be an over specified, unsuitable and expensive mistake or, perhaps even worse, buy a mish mash of components over the Internet or off Ebay and wonder why, if they do manage to connect it all up, it doesn’t work properly and they get discouraged. This situation is frequently at the root of many of the pleas for help we see on the Forums.

I suppose we should be grateful that most of the servo plugs are generally compatible with a bit of surgery!

As far as microswitches are concerned, we both know a well known boater who goes down this route and is very successful in steering competitions, he attributes this to a simple setup and knowing his boat. It works for him, and it worked pretty well for me in the past so it’s not all bad!

Colin
11 October 2009 at 17:07 #23490
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Please sir. Not complaining about the complexity of it all merely saying that there IS an amount of knowledge involved, which sometimes appears to be lacking in some instances.

I know nothing about 6 channel sets other than there are a lot of knobs to twiddle and my experience of watching people at the pond with such sets is that some of them are unsure what knobs to fiddle with and when, and perhaps these things require a bit of effort in the reading-up department to avoid the sorts of problems mentioned.

I was only bringing up the microswitch aspect to bring another point of view to bear.

Ashley. (I dont care, I`ve been called a Luddite loads of times)
12 October 2009 at 07:51 #23496
David Meier
Participant
@davidmeier28154
Ashley, the cheek of it, Luddite clap-trap indeed. Does he realise that you are twice published? So what if the flying boat doesn’t fly, the New Zealand mascot is a flightless bird and the mighty Toyboata has got to be a strong contender if there is ever a straight running competition on dry land. Turn the other cheek Ashley You have got fans.

Your supporter.

David.
12 October 2009 at 08:23 #23497
Barry Foote
Participant
@barryfoote68385
A cracking thread gentlemen. Personally, I have used some of the modern systems, from good old Dave M, and found them to be superb. I am currently scratch building an early American diesel tug and due to financial restriants, I am installing equipment that is over 23 years old. A Bobs board that still works perfectly and an old 27 meg radio system that peforms flawlessly.

For me, one of the main differences between the two is that I actually understand how the old gear works..
12 October 2009 at 09:28 #23498
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
To dismiss modern radio
equipment simply on the grounds that you don’t understand it is like refusing
to have a TV or a computer in the house because you’ve not yet obtained a degree
in electronics. It’s blinkered, to say the very least. Maybe ‘Luddite’
was a bit strong, but it got you lot jumping!
I bet most of us worked out how an SU carby worked in that old 105E we bought
in 197never-you-mind, but how many of us have worked out modern fuel injection,
especially since the swine started putting microprocessors into ~~car ignition~~
(oops!) engine management systems? Doesn’t stop us driving, does it?
Do we insist on toasting our muffins on the end of a long fork in front of a coal
fire because we don’t trust an electric toaster to pop up at the right time,
and that brooding condensing boiler in the scullery has an electronic controller?
Of course not – that would be silly.
It is relatively easy to find a multi-channel radio which doesn’t have all the complicated
bells and whistles on it. They are stupidly cheap compared with the price 40
years ago (my first Futaba Digimax 4 was £125 – in 1969) and you can use the
extra channels to control auxiliary functions properly. I’m not talking
about kicking in an extra battery at full rudder here, and I don’t think Ashley
was either.
If you can follow a wiring diagram and/or read straightforward
instructions then that’s all you need to know. If you insist on pushing the
envelope by purchasing something you don’t feel comfortable with, then be aware
that it might be your own envelope you’re pushing and not that of the
technology. ‘RTFM’ usually works for me.

Mr Meier – I like the cut of your jib, sir – but I’d expect nothing less of
another Dave M

DM (Thrice published )

12 October 2009 at 17:36 #23504
Len Ochiltree
Participant

@lenochiltree67043
Thats an interesting Avatar Dave, or is it me that only sees a little red x.

If I go over to 2.4 ( a cheap one ) how can I run different boats on one Tranny, will I have to move the Rx to each boat or will I be able to use a Different Rx in each boat and will they all have to be tuned in to the Tx.

Also with 27 or 40 it was possible to run two boats at the same time from one Tx, but this cant be done with 2.4 can it ?.

Len nearly an old duffer.
12 October 2009 at 17:40 #23506
Len Ochiltree
Participant

@lenochiltree67043
Thats an interesting Avatar Dave, or is it me that only sees a little red x.

If I go over to 2.4 ( a cheap one ) how can I run different boats on one Tranny, will I have to move the Rx to each boat or will I be able to use a Different Rx in each boat and will they all have to be tuned in to the Tx.

Also with 27 or 40 it was possible to run two boats at the same time from one Tx, but this cant be done with 2.4 can it ?.

Len nearly an old duffer.
12 October 2009 at 17:54 #23507
Wideawake
Participant

@wideawake
Hi Len

What I am going to say is based on the DX5e as I have several Spektrum RXs to experiment with. Yes you can have one TX and several RXs in different boats. If they are the same type of RX then they can all be bound at once. Obviously if two are turned on at the same time they will both respond to the TX. What i have just said also answers your other question. If you can bind two RXs then logically if one has servos on two channels and the other has servos on two different channels you can be controlling two separate two channel boats. There are pitfalls if the RXs are different types but explaining that means getting a little technical.

HTH

Guy
12 October 2009 at 17:54 #23508
Dave Milbourn
Participant

@davemilbourn48782
Len

I don’t have an avatar, so I don’t know where the red cross is coming from on your screen; I can’t see it on mine.

There’s
a very informative thread going on elsewhere about the DX5e and its
uses with more than one model. Quite why you would want to run two
boats at the same time from one Tx is a bit beyond me, though. I guess
it would be possible but I don’t think my hand/eye co-ordination would be up to doing it.

The Spektrum AR500 receiver is almost as cheap as chips,
while the Captain Codfish one (or whatever they’re called) is a tenner.
You would need to “bind” each receiver to the transmitter and then fit
a receiver into each boat, but that’s no more trouble than fitting the
same frequency crystals to each of the 27 or 40 meg receivers running from the same tranny.

Keep the faith – we aspirant old duffers used to rule the world, you know.

DM

(Guy beat me to it by a matter of moments!)

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 12/10/2009 17:55:18
12 October 2009 at 18:53 #23509
ashley needham
Participant

@ashleyneedham69188
Dave m. Luddite clap trap….great phrase! worth airing now and then. Perhaps MORE often ….

David M. 4 times published (not that I am counting) actually, and the first one didnt even have ANY radio control in it!

My point, you can see from the very posts in this thread the general confusion about these gadgets, and the problems with different equipment !

Ashley (Large villa in Brighton from proceeds of articles)
13 October 2009 at 07:04 #23520
Paul T
Participant

@pault84577
Perhaps we could link this subject to Colins thread on sailing events and go one step further with electronics by using GPS to pre-programme models to self steer around a course.

After the programming all the modeller would need to do is put the boat on the water and switch it on, the boat would sail a perfect course and win the event whilst you are sitting in the bar.

Teckite rather than Luddite as the model builders hunch over their laptops making micro changes to hyperspace…….but then why bother with the model at all when it could all be done in a virtual world with no need to leave the comfort of your armchair.

Ashley: Published 4 times and only have a villa…I have only been published once and managed to by an island on the proceeds…………a small place just off the coast of Wales.

Paul
13 October 2009 at 08:18 #23525
Barry Foote
Participant

@barryfoote68385
Len,

Dave’s avatar is deliberately done like that……You would not want to see the real thing!!!!

As for the rest of your post, well that man from ACTion will have all the answers you need..
13 October 2009 at 12:03 #23528
Dave Milbourn
Participant

@davemilbourn48782
Dave’s avatar is deliberately done like that……You would not want to see the real thing!!!!

OK Footski – this means war! Avatar sent for approval……….

DM
13 October 2009 at 12:15 #23529
Colin Bishop
Moderator

@colinbishop34627
Not sure about approval – I did it for Liz – she deserves a look in.

Colin
13 October 2009 at 13:40 #23530
Barry Foote
Participant

@barryfoote68385
Avatar duly approved Mr Milbourn Sir…….Amazing what can be done with photo software these days!!
13 October 2009 at 13:49 #23531
Dave Milbourn
Participant

@davemilbourn48782
Amazing what can be done with photo software these days!!

Yes – damned clever the way the artist has managed to Photoshop out the long serial number you were holding under your chin in the original photo…………..

DM

(I’ve been insulted by professionals, you know)
13 October 2009 at 19:39 #23533
Barry Foote
Participant

@barryfoote68385
Posted by Dave Milbourn on 13/10/2009 13:49:43:

Amazing what can be done with photo software these days!!

Yes – damned clever the way the artist has managed to Photoshop out the long serial number you were holding under your chin in the original photo…………..

DM

(I’ve been insulted by professionals, you know)

Brilliant…..
30 October 2009 at 16:29 #23770
Ian Gardner
Participant

@iangardner62867
Hi all,

As I was the person who originally asked about Spektrum DX5e and different receivers I can now confirm previous posts that mention you can bind more than one receiver to a DX5e tx. I have used AR500’s and bound three to the tx. Yes, they all respond if switched on simultaneously but I only operate one boat at a time!

Now it wasn’t complicated, just unknown to me. I even emailed Horizon Hobbies and they told me I had to re-bind each time. It was as a result of posts on here that I went ahead and bought more receivers- so thanks to all who answered.

I can now say that I think 2.4GHz is brilliant, not complicated in it’s uncomputerised forms amd solves quite few little problems. Aerials are easier to cope with, no more crystals, and less batteries to worry about in the tx, smaller aerial on the tx.

I have yet to find a downside apart from cost of equipment which, when all is said and done, is not that great unlessyou are expecting to get such brilliant technology for nothing. It’s still cheaper in real terms than my first 27 meg set was thirty years ago.

Best wishes all,

Ian
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