Advice and idea’s needed please

[Eddie LancasterParticipant @eddielancaster]

Hi.Dave, it sails well enough, but not like a racing yacht.

Eddie.

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Posted by Dave Cooper 6 on 18/12/2019 15:31:18:

Hi Roy – Oh, if only we had such sophistication back then (around 1957) !

I seem to remember that unless you set up some 'weather helm' it would luff-up and come to a complete stand still.

However, as it was only really a large public 'paddling pool' we could wade in and retrieve it quite easily…. I guess this may have been due to an unbalanced rig. (Something we had on the early full-size Ospreys).

Regards, Dave

Vanes came into use about the 1940's, Braine steering early in the 20th century. Any free sailing sail boat needs to be well balanced to prevent it acting like a floating weather vane. Vanes and Braines just act to apply a bit of corrective rudder to keep the yacht on the same heading to the wind. I have seen a well set up Vane A hit disturbed air at Fleetwood and circle.

[Roy Verden 1Participant @royverden1]

Hi Dave Au contrar! Braine was in use in the 1890's and vanes were actually invented / proposed in 1904/5 but were not brought into use until the 30's.

I had a Braine steering yacht to get going and it needs a bit of research to do as they were quite sophisticated and would be set up for a beat and then a run just by using the turning pole for the next leg of the race. The wind speed would determine how much righting force the mechanism has (Spring or elastic at rear) and pegs for different courses.

Mr. Smeed came up with a simple vane with a large and a small plastic cog wheel and a lift off spiggot with the vane on to set course. With a bit of weather helm from the sail setting it works extremely well.

You can keep all that and with a bit of pokey pokey using RC you can fool most people.

regards Roy

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi Malcolm / Roy

Yes, just dug out an old Model Maker /Aeromodeller Plans Handbook of around 1962 vintage and there they are !

5 different designs of vane steering – I wonder if "Sarik" still has the plans tucked away in their archives somewhere ? (I think I'll be sticking to Radio though !)

Merry Christmas both,

Dave

[Roy Verden 1Participant @royverden1]

Hi all, anyone wanting some vane gear let me know, I have some with bits I think for a 10R.

Braine steering is quite sophisticated allowing for a different tack to be pre-set when turned by your 'runner' with a 'Turning Pole' at the end of a leg. Held its' own for some time. The curved quadrant over the rudder stock gives it away as Braine steering. Vanes were also able to pre-set a tack, were more effective but the mechanics could get complicated. And mostly you had to make your own or dig deep in your pocket.

Were you aware that back in the 1900's the Model Yacht Clubs were not unlike a posh golf club of today. The Captain would wear his 'uniform' and be a club member the yacht would be built and sailed by his 'man'. The Captain funding the build and taking the trophy as well. A copy of the High end Royalty patronage and which is why the UK had so many model yachting ponds.

A careful inspection of these full size craft sailing will reveal the headgear worn. It was a smart cap and jacket for the Officers and Christopher Robin sun hats for the crew. I have reflected this on my sailing model of the Endeavour, unfortunately they do not go to sea but merely pose for exhibitions.

When the Americas Cup was the high point of the year then this was where Society was. Now somewhat descended to Polo and Henley for rowing. Of course some terminology then has changed, back in those days Funding the coming of age and Ball (dance to you younger ones) for 'one's daughter's coming out' for instance! I believe it has other connotations now.

However sailing a yacht preferably with a yachting cap on, mine says Ancient Mariner, is the upper end of our hobby and should be kept alive for as long as possible. A discreet radio is allowed but a Turning Pole is de riguer. I am sure the Sophisticates of the VMYG will agree with me entirely. My wife will not accompany me out with my Christopher Robin hat on, though I have a high regard for its efficacy.

kind regards

Roy (A.M.)

Edited By Roy Verden 1 on 22/12/2019 18:02:22

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Reading through the vane steering design descriptions, they appear to be 'tacking' devices….tacking on the wind shifts ?

Model Maker's plan rating system lists them as *** (experienced), or, **** (very experienced or needing machine tools). I imagine that this is really "Model Engineer" land ?

So, if the first leg was a 'beat' the vane system would do this, then, the turning pole does the 'reach' and, subsequently, the 'run' as well. I'm just envisaging the poor chap /gal tearing around the pond chasing yachts !

Maybe it was a little more gentile and civilised than this in practice and some vanes could cope with a reach and a run as well ? Just curious….

Dave

[Roy Verden 1Participant @royverden1]

Hello Dave, I am not sure I understand you! Why do you think yacht racing is civilised and gentile? It is WAR! The combatants maybe be smiling but beneath that smile the teeth are gritted, all loins are girded, any advantage within the rules is taken. The cry of "Starboard" is "Get out of my way, I am on this course which may take me through the middle of your boat, so shift off"!

You are going to have to read up for yourself on operating a vane gear on a model yacht they have developed over the years and as you say you will need engineering ability to construct. Basically you set the course you are on estimate the next course with wind angles etc and when the yacht is turned (back to your side of the lake) the vane mechanism flips across and takes up the new course. The yacht proceeds in a series of unequal zig zags into wind and then a glorious downwind finish.

RC was there in the 50's but was big and heavy with valves and batteries and practical only with the larger yachts. Also it was only practical to run one boat at a time, so racing was out. Crystal frequency control arrived with transistors and much lighter batteries which enabled the smaller yachts to compete. The rest is history.

Regards

Roy

 

Edited By Roy Verden 1 on 23/12/2019 11:12:12

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi Roy – Ahhh. so it's like full-size yacht racing then….I've seen some boats reduced to 'match wood' ! "Water-for-the-mark" and all that…

As an amateur engineer, I'd like to read up on vane (and, other) steering mechanisms – can you recommend any suitable reading ?

Thanks,

Dave

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hello Dave,

Having done my share of fullsize dinghy racing, and model yacht racing, the latter is much more aggressive on the lakeside, mostly from old guys like myself with attitude problems many of whom have in my experience come very close to joining their boat in the water.

This is the main reason I sail model Thames Sailing Barges with AMBO, as it's relaxed and we know who's going to win the race most of the time.

Perhaps you should start a new thread for Vane steering control of model yachts? as this thread has wandered off course from the original restoration project. All though it's rather like inventing the square wheel again?

Regards Ray

[Roy Verden 1Participant @royverden1]

Yes apologies to Mr. johnson. About a couple of years ago I had a call from a guy with a similar model yacht,(14 inches loa) it was in skip condition but clearly he saw it with rose tinted glasses. He brought it around to see me, I asked about his expectations, 70 odd years old, family heirloom, wanted original colour back and it was called Kitty! Took me 10 elapsed days to bring it back from the wilderness and she sailed nicely as well. He was very happy with the outcome. I have pictures somewhere.

Best way to make things better is to restore and maybe enhance but keep the character of the model.

We did go off on a bit of a tangent on Vanes I have been having a think and most of my info has come in bits and pieces, I can't think of a guide to using steering gear. Perhaps if there is anyone from the VMYG, they might like to comment?

A basic vane set up for a small yacht (24 inches) is a 1 inch plastic spoked gear wheel locked onto the rudder stock, with a light elastic band going forward to keep it going straight. Then a small vane on an arm on a pivot with a small cog about 10 teeth which can be lifted up to adjust. Thus enabling the cog to engage the larger gear wheel when in position. So the vane can be set to where the apparent wind is coming from and any time the yacht goes off course (with reference to the wind) then the new angle of the vane to the wind has a levering effect which alters the rudder to compensate.

You tighten the tension on the elastic band according to wind speed. It is all very simple.

I have crewed and helmed 40 foot sailing yachts and it is most exilorating looking up a 50 foot mast and reading the wind but that is old hat now. My lad's boat has automatic course correction, you just set the course press a button and go and make tea. Just make sure the wind does not get up too much for the sail carried, but furling jib and main make this not to difficult. i

I was a not very active crew member during a big boat race last year and we won the race by quite a margin, our captain read the wind correctly we took a different route and won handsomely. All quite exciting and wet and cold and where's me tea!

I have always been a casual sailor of model yachts, more concerned for how they look on the water, however it is best to know how your boat behaves/performs as sometmes a sudden squall can create a maelstrom out where the boat is and survival is the main thing. My son is a qualified full size yachtmaster and it shows when he operates my yachts, he always beats me. (hope he does not read this, I always say it is sheer luck on the day etc)!

regards Roy

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

I'll also add my apologies to Mr Johnston for the thread going 'off-course' – how's the refurb' going John ?

Thanks for the input /explanations Roy and Ray. I'll try a new thread and we'll see what transpires….

Regards,

Dave

[John Johnston 6Participant @johnjohnston6]

Hey guys, no need for apologies …. I run my own art forum from my web site (I have a couple of nautical drawings if anyone is interested) so I appreciate just how easily things can wander off topic. Actually I found the discussion rather interesting, though completely beyond me. I had figured out that there must be a way of 'connecting' the sails to the rudder to avoid the boat being blown over but I just couldn't figure out how that would work. If I was intending to sail my boat I'd be asking tons of questions.

As for the refurb, I'm afraid it's been on hold and will remain so well into the new year. I made time to knock up a rough and ready 'jig' to support the boat while I was working on it as I found clamping it in the workmate to be a bit precarious and I was also worried about damaging the keel if I clamped too hard. And a big thank you to Eddie for the photo of his friends boat ….. if I could fashion a cabin like that for mine I'd be well pleased.

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