Petrol Engines

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Petrol Engines

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2 September 2018 at 02:30 #78667
S M
Participant
@sm83187
Its a simple question, how many people use petrol/diesel engines in their larger models and where do you get them from?

With the upsurge in motor technologies coupled to ever increasing battery technology it isn't unsurprising that people use battery power for their models for simplicity and ease of use but what if you cannot afford the cost or weight of such installations.

For many years I have modified petrol engines and fitted them to many models and petrol is readily available and cheaper then glow fuel, and with the proliferation of cheap and compact petrol equipment coming onto the DIY and industrial marketplace it is also a cheap way of recycling these engines to give another use to them.

One of my favourites was the older Spear and Jackson chainsaw engines as they were the German built engines and not the poorer quality Chinese engines they use today, These are a robust little engine and give a good turn of speed and use very little fuel compared to a similar glow engine, and they come complete with starter pull cord and centrifugal clutches you can actually strip down and rebuild/repair very easily.

What are your favourites and where do you get them from, or would you consider using them over electric or glow engines.
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2 September 2018 at 02:30 #5534
S M
Participant
@sm83187
How many use them?
2 September 2018 at 09:26 #78671
Malcolm Frary
Participant
@malcolmfrary95515
One of the biggest problems with IC motors is finding a venue where they can be used.
2 September 2018 at 11:01 #78674
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
I would hazard a guess that 99% of the petrol engines used in RC model boats belong to folk who race model powerboats offshore and on a [very] few designated inland waters. Contrary to what you say about the weight and cost of electric power, these exotic creations tend to use race-prepared engines with tuned pipes, costing in excess of £500 – and that's without the GRP hulls, flexible drive shafts, transom-mounted rudders and surface-piercing props. Not a lot of change from a grand for even a basic set-up. You certainly couldn't compete in that company with an old Spear and Jackson chainsaw motor, even if you knew where to find a supply of them. Tiger Kings, Zenoahs and CMB's reign supreme in this corner of the modelling world.
As Malcolm says, the main problem with IC motors is that they are perceived as dangerous, noisy and polluting and are thus banned by local authorities and water companies. Cynics would also [rightly] say that their use doesn't generate anything like as much revenue for owners of otherwise suitable waters as do anglers and dinghy sailors, with whom they would be in direct conflict.
You should consider that a modern brushless electric motor is powerful, cheap, clean, silent, non-polluting, requires little if any maintenance or servicing skills and will run in reverse simply by pulling back on the throttle stick. For almost all model boaters – apart from the "rag and stick" brigade – the choice is a no-brainer.
I personally know of only one lonely "casual" user of petrol engines in non-competitive model boats. He posts on here occasionally under the name of Paul T. ;o)

Dave M
2 September 2018 at 14:16 #78675
Byron Rees…(Ron)
Participant
@byronrees-ron
Hi All,

As Dave M says above, it is hard to find venues or clubs that are allowed to run i/c engines of any sort. I entered boating properly in the late 1960's and was fortunate in joining the Victoria Model Steamboat Club in Hackney East London. This club is still there along with other ones near me like Brentwood MBC where a lot of Offshore and i/c powerboat enthusiasts run their boats.

I remember well the meetings and arguments I've had with local councils out to ban i/c engines, the noise, the oil/fuel in the water and so on. A great many clubs disappeared because of all that, some that had been happily drawing in the public on Sundays for decades. It was a great shame.

I still have a couple of boats powered by JAP engines, both the smaller 22cc x 2 strokes and I also have 2 x of the wonderful Gannet 15cc OHV petrol engines. In my old bits box there are the remains of smaller marine i/c engines, diesels and glow, never to see the light of day again, but maybe fill a space on someones collection shelves. VMSC and Blackheath clubs own a lot of fine models and engines from model members who have passed to the great boatyard in the sky, donated or bought from the estates of great engineers like George Nurthen, Norman Phelps, Alan Raymen, Bert Perman and others and these Seal 4 cylinders, gannets and high speed steam engines live on, but are rare to see running.

It is now a bygone age I'm afraid but if someone wants to run an i/c engine powered model, I am sure that the members of those rare clubs would welcome them to the fold. Contact the Model Power Boat Association for club details, they are still around.

Cheers……..Ron.
2 September 2018 at 15:25 #78676
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Run on rivers and canalised rivers and canals. Nobody can complain about tiny model engines when there are dirty great diesels blowing crap out the chimney.

Or run with the offshore boys even if you don't compete.

DO NOT GIVE UP!!! Come to Fenland and run on the river with me.

Martin
2 September 2018 at 16:02 #78678
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Nobody can complain about tiny model engines when there are dirty great diesels blowing crap out the chimney.

You would be amazed… I recall once, as a kid, I was flying my ED Bee-powered KK Phantom on the large playing field opposite our house, when a bloke from the posh houses on the other side of the field actually turned off his petrol mower and climbed over the fence to remonstrate very loudly and angrily with me over the sound of my toy aeroplane. I wasn't old enough to know any appropriate expletives, let alone big enough to use them!

Unfortunately the world is increasingly full of his kind.

DM
2 September 2018 at 16:10 #78680
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
My Dad would have paid him a visit! He'd still be mowing his lawn.!

They do it round here and they take all bloody day with nosy ride-ons that are diesel hydraulic, so they're chuntering on flat out while the hydraulics whistles away. The guy who does our lawns could walk it in half an hour with his quieter 4 stroke Mountfield.

But a well silenced IC is not much noisier than a fast brushless, which are far from silent. I would think a 4 stroker in a boat with a decent wet exhaust would be a perfectly lovely sound.

Mention above of a Seal 4 cylinder reminds me of when I saw Olive Cockman at Victoria Model Steamboat Club with her straight runner in which was a Westbury Seal that her husband had helped her make, although she did most of it.

It started perfectly on a flick of the flywheel and ran as quietly as a mouse and she spoke to me while it was running, easily. The noise aspect of all these Nazis' objections is complete Bottom juice, to quote Stephen Fry.

Martin
2 September 2018 at 16:54 #78681
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
As Dave has said I am a self confessed petrol head and in my young teenage years used to love shoehorning daft engines into my models and letting them roar off along the canal. But my choice of engines was down to availability rather than choice because back then I had a part time job fixing garden equipment which mainly consisted of grass cutters, hedge cutters and the early flymo's.

I had access to motors, parts, spares and a fully kitted workshop so I could create the hottest and fastest petrol engines but I would have preferred an electric motor and a decent battery, unfortunately the only large electric motors back then were small starter motors and batteries were either from motorcycles or the Eveready 6v lantern battery (the one with the springs on top)

Petrol engines had problems……the main one being the lack of an easy reverse.

In all my time putting dafter and dafter engines into models I never came close to the performance of the modern Zenoah units even with skimming cylinder heads and increasing port sizes.

My last petrol boat was a Barrel Back which is a prime example of a model being built around an engine.

But with the advent of brushless motors and dependable batteries I have changed over to electric.

Paul
2 September 2018 at 17:07 #78682
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Nice, but not strictly a barrel back, Paul. Barrel backs are one continuous curve at the transom. What you have there is a Custom or also known as a Special Raceboat or Special Runabout, like mine. A broken curve at the transom and one cockpit with a long rear deck. Very nice.

I imagine it's a big devil too.

Martin
2 September 2018 at 17:51 #78683
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Martin

Its 4ft long and looks lovely on the lake.

You are right about the shape of the transom, its a design compromise that stiffened the hull (that 50cc unit produced a lot of torque)

Paul
2 September 2018 at 18:30 #78690
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
50cc? Lovely. I bet it looks great. Even better belting round a harbour or a little inlet, eh?

Very nice and a most unusual model amongst all the plodders.

Martin
2 September 2018 at 18:40 #78692
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Hi Martin

Having a lot of space to sail is the biggest problem facing a large model especially during high speed turns.

Paul
2 September 2018 at 19:10 #78694
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
That's why I suggested estuaries, harbours and inlets. Go salty young man

Martin
3 September 2018 at 13:22 #78702
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Martin

The problems relating to estuaries, harbours and inlets are rip tides, choppy conditions, deep mud and especially access to suitable launching sites, a 4ft petrol engined boat is quite heavy and difficult to launch and recover without easy and mobile access to the water (preferably a slipway) in fact its very much like launching a dinghy.

The big concern about these locations is engine stall or failure as the tide has an amazing ability to move an inert model far away very fast.

No I shall stick to sailing my larger boats on canals at least here my only concern is sinking.

Paul
3 September 2018 at 13:51 #78704
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Yeah, canals are fine and the more static canalised rivers. They were my first suggestions anyway.

There's always a way, even if it means a small inflatable and a Seagull outboard on the roof! I love the smell of an old style o/b!

Martin
3 September 2018 at 14:54 #78705
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
Seagull outboards are terrible and I could never understand the driving force behind their popularity.

I don't really fancy having to mount a major expedition involving rubber boats and outboard motors just to sail my model boats, I prefer to stick with my little electric rescue tug.

Paul
3 September 2018 at 15:57 #78706
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Oh Seagulls are wonderful. Oily, smelly and recalcitrant, but the sense of achievement when they run, which mine always have, is unbeatable. And that glorious old skool 2 stroke smell is exceeded only by good old bilge whiff in the atmosphere stakes.<G>

If you have an electric tug that can rescue that's fine.

Martin
3 September 2018 at 23:15 #78713
Chris Fellows
Participant
@chrisfellows72943
Talking of old outboards, there was one in the corner of the fireplace at a pub we went to on a trip we did to the Cheddar Gorge area a couple of months ago.

We had a Seagull on one of our dinghys – might still be at my mothers. They were OK when there was nothing else available but later motors we had with neutral, reverse and a proper pull start were much better.

Chris
4 September 2018 at 01:50 #78719
S M
Participant
@sm83187
Posted by Dave Milbourn on 02/09/2018 11:01:34:

I would hazard a guess that 99% of the petrol engines used in RC model boats belong to folk who race model powerboats offshore and on a [very] few designated inland waters. Contrary to what you say about the weight and cost of electric power, these exotic creations tend to use race-prepared engines with tuned pipes, costing in excess of £500 – and that's without the GRP hulls, flexible drive shafts, transom-mounted rudders and surface-piercing props. Not a lot of change from a grand for even a basic set-up. You certainly couldn't compete in that company with an old Spear and Jackson chainsaw motor, even if you knew where to find a supply of them. Tiger Kings, Zenoahs and CMB's reign supreme in this corner of the modelling world.
As Malcolm says, the main problem with IC motors is that they are perceived as dangerous, noisy and polluting and are thus banned by local authorities and water companies. Cynics would also [rightly] say that their use doesn't generate anything like as much revenue for owners of otherwise suitable waters as do anglers and dinghy sailors, with whom they would be in direct conflict.
You should consider that a modern brushless electric motor is powerful, cheap, clean, silent, non-polluting, requires little if any maintenance or servicing skills and will run in reverse simply by pulling back on the throttle stick. For almost all model boaters – apart from the "rag and stick" brigade – the choice is a no-brainer.
I personally know of only one lonely "casual" user of petrol engines in non-competitive model boats. He posts on here occasionally under the name of Paul T. ;o)

Dave M

Interesting but on the extremeties I feel Dave, nobody mentioned racing them as I only asked who used them, what do they use, and do they recycle them from other products.

I'm glad you used the word "perceived" as this sums it up nicely, in point of fact the electric motors are considerably more polluting in their manufacture and disposal than a petrol engine with over 10 years of normal use and when we combine the non recyclable batteries it actually adds up to much more pollution to run a brushless motor combined with its battery pack. As for cost? recycled engine nil cost, no need for flex shafts and surface piercing props as you can use a standard shaft with a conventional layout. As for reversing! gearboxes, no car, lorry, train, plant, or other piece of petrol engined kit has an engine which rotates two ways, but they can all go in reverse.
4 September 2018 at 01:57 #78720
S M
Participant
@sm83187
Posted by Dave Milbourn on 02/09/2018 11:01:34:

I would hazard a guess that 99% of the petrol engines used in RC model boats belong to folk who race model powerboats offshore and on a [very] few designated inland waters. Contrary to what you say about the weight and cost of electric power, these exotic creations tend to use race-prepared engines with tuned pipes, costing in excess of £500 – and that's without the GRP hulls, flexible drive shafts, transom-mounted rudders and surface-piercing props. Not a lot of change from a grand for even a basic set-up. You certainly couldn't compete in that company with an old Spear and Jackson chainsaw motor, even if you knew where to find a supply of them. Tiger Kings, Zenoahs and CMB's reign supreme in this corner of the modelling world.
As Malcolm says, the main problem with IC motors is that they are perceived as dangerous, noisy and polluting and are thus banned by local authorities and water companies. Cynics would also [rightly] say that their use doesn't generate anything like as much revenue for owners of otherwise suitable waters as do anglers and dinghy sailors, with whom they would be in direct conflict.
You should consider that a modern brushless electric motor is powerful, cheap, clean, silent, non-polluting, requires little if any maintenance or servicing skills and will run in reverse simply by pulling back on the throttle stick. For almost all model boaters – apart from the "rag and stick" brigade – the choice is a no-brainer.
I personally know of only one lonely "casual" user of petrol engines in non-competitive model boats. He posts on here occasionally under the name of Paul T. ;o)

Dave M

Interesting but on the extremeties I feel Dave, nobody mentioned racing them as I only asked who used them, what do they use, and do they recycle them from other products.

I'm glad you used the word "perceived" as this sums it up nicely, in point of fact the electric motors are considerably more polluting in their manufacture and disposal than a petrol engine with over 10 years of normal use and when we combine the non recyclable batteries it actually adds up to much more pollution to run a brushless motor combined with its battery pack. As for cost? recycled engine nil cost, no need for flex shafts and surface piercing props as you can use a standard shaft with a conventional layout. As for reversing! gearboxes, no car, lorry, train, plant, or other piece of petrol engined kit has an engine which rotates two ways, but they can all go in reverse.
4 September 2018 at 02:00 #78721
S M
Participant
@sm83187
Martin, thank you for your kind offer but I have a couple of private lakes I have access to, and yes a correctly silenced petrol is not much noisier than a brushless.
4 September 2018 at 08:41 #78722
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
S M

You asked a question about who uses petrol engines in large models and I gave you an answer i.e. model powerboat racers, Dr Thomason and probably very few others. I then went on to offer an opinion as to why that is the case.

Having been in and around the model trade for getting on for 50 years I have observed that the use of electric motors has overtaken that of IC engines in nearly all aspects of the RC hobby. It doesn't take a genius to work out why.

It seems to me that the effort and skills involved in sourcing and renovating an old Spear and Jackson petrol engine and fitting it with an efficient silencer and gearbox [also at nil cost?] would not only be beyond the average boat modeller but would also seem to be out of all proportion to its "usability" afterwards. Very few have access to large private waters whereas there are a lot of public park lakes where small electric-powered models are allowed, so few have the choices that you do.

I have no data on the relative pollution levels of one type versus the other which is why I didn't venture an opinion on it. However I would point out that most if not all of the world's automotive manufacturers are concentrating their future efforts on electric vehicles, so I would guess that battery recycling will become much more important and widespread as internal combustion engines and their carbon-based fuels become less so.

D M
4 September 2018 at 11:37 #78727
Paul T
Participant
@pault84577
in point of fact the electric motors are considerably more polluting in their manufacture and disposal than a petrol engine with over 10 years of normal use and when we combine the non recyclable batteries it actually adds up to much more pollution to run a brushless motor combined with its battery pack.

I am sorry to say that your deductions are completely incorrect as for a true comparison, or level playing field, you have to compare the production, life span, disposal or recycling of each product on a like for like basis.

ie compare all variables involved in the production process of a strimmer engine to that of a large brushless motor.

Then compare the effective life of each product on a performance / energy consumption basis.

Finally compare the costs involved in disposal against the reclamation of basic materials.
4 September 2018 at 12:47 #78729
Martin Field 1
Participant
@martinfield1
Paul, that's an interesting proposition and I am tempted to say, "well go on then".

I have no idea, but at a guess I would have thought the lecktrickery would come out the loser on that calculation. Can you prove otherwise?

Just wondering.

Martin
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