Steam Plant for a TID tug ??

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Steam Plant for a TID tug ??

Home Forums Steam powered models Steam Plant for a TID tug ??

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  • #124953
    Ray Wood 3
    Participant
      @raywood3

      Hi All,

      I have become the proud owner of an old friends steam plant as he has gone to the Boathouse in the sky at the age of 80, Dave Della and I had been friends for 30 years and was very happy to have this steam plant and a couple of his excellent boats as a keepsake 🙂

      I imagine the first thing I need to ask Richard is how the meths fuelled blow lamp is ignited ? I have seen some scenes on you tube with a candle under the burner to heat it up but not sure if the tank needs to be pressurised ?

      The next challenge which Jim and I have been discussing is if it will fit inside the 35″ TID which he has ? if so I’ll build one PDQ 🙂

      Some pictures FYISP1SP2

      Regards Ray

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      #124955
      Richard Simpson
      Participant
        @richardsimpson88330

        Hi Ray,  Lovely plant, not sure what the boiler is and I can’t see the engine but the burner looks very much like a Saito burner so I suspect the entire plant might be Saito.  As I did a couple of articles only recently in “Boiler Room” on Saito burners I have sent them to you attached to an e-mail.

        The bottom line is basically they are similar to the old paraffin plumber’s torches that everyone used to have in the 50s and 60s, and beyond in some cases.  With your burner you first warm the burner with some meths in a little dish or a small hand held torch etc until the heat transfers to the tank and starts to warm the tank and pressurise it.  This starts to force liquid through the needle valve and orifice to the burner.  You slowly open the needle valve and ignite the vapour that is coming through.  As the tank warms up the pressure increases and the needle valve is slowly opened to give you the flame you want.  Simple, easy, good heat, cheap meths as fuel and no problems with the gas cooling effect.  The only downside is handling liquid fuel but common sense and basic safety precautions should minimise risks.

        The articles should make it all clearer.  If you need a set of my boiler instructions scanning, which include burner operation, let me know.

        You can see how it works with the diagram taken from the instructions.  The thing on top is a removeable safety valve, which is there to prevent the fuel tank from over pressurising. It is removeable to allow filling of the tank, best done with a plastic pipette or a syringe.  Note the metal bottle cap for filling with meths to be lit to warm up the burner and start the process. If you put enough in the lid the tank should be warm enough before the meths has all gone so all you need to do is just crack open the metering valve and the meths from the tank should ignite with the flame in the cap.

         

         

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        #124959
        Ray Wood 3
        Participant
          @raywood3

          Thanks Richard,

          I still have some paraffin blowlamps 🙂 My dad had a 5 pint blowlamp for boiler bashing it was a fearsome beast !!

          The boiler is 3.5″ diameter & 5″ long and the twin cylinder slide valve engine are all scratch built and runs like a Swiss watch at 60 per square inch 🙂

          Dave built 3nr 5″ locos and half a dozen 3.5″ gauge in the last 30 years !!

          Looks like I’m building a tug soon 🙂

          Regards Ray

          #124963
          Richard Simpson
          Participant
            @richardsimpson88330

            I really would suggest an open hull Ray, lots of advantages, especially if dealing with liquid fuel and the need to get a pressurised liquid burner going.

            #124999
            Ray Wood 3
            Participant
              @raywood3

              Hi Richard,

              I have my heart set on a steam tug, so I’m just ordering the SARIK plan for the TID which I may have to enlarge slightly , I have a vision of a locomotive whistle in the funnel 🙂

              I think I will be lighting the burner out of the boat to minimise the risk of an inferno 🙁

              Regards Ray

              #125000
              Colin Bishop
              Moderator
                @colinbishop34627

                Interesting dilemma – what takes priority, choice of engine or the boat or is it 50/50?

                For me choice of boat is the overriding factor, I’m not into steam so it’s just choosing the motors to make it go and then the choice simply involves brushed or brushless and NiMH or LiPo. (the sort of boats I build don’t need ballasting with a Gel Cell.)

                The other big factor is scale of course as it determines degree of detail and, to some extent the extent to which you can build to it as I am discovering with my Miltiades liner. My Greek fishing boat was a doddle by comparison.

                Colin

                #125019
                Richard Simpson
                Participant
                  @richardsimpson88330

                  Just a couple of thoughts Ray.  While a pressurised liquid burner has some significant advantages over a gas fired one the handling of liquid fuel is one disadvantage.  With such a burner inside an enclosed hull we have to consider a number of scenarios.  First up is initial lighting, which is a big difference to gas, which is simply put a light to the top of the funnel and turn on the gas.  With liquid fuel you have to go through the process of warming the burner and hence tank to create some pressure, when you can open the needle valve to ignite the burner.  You may have to use an alternative flame if the tray of meths has gone out.  If you want to do this outside the model you then have to consider whether you want to make the burner and fuel tank unit individually removeable or whether you want to remove the entire plant on its base.  Removing the entire plant is a bit of a faff as you are going to have to drop the entire unit back in the boat, with the burner lit and a hot boiler.  Then you will have to reconnect the shaft and the engine control servo, and, in your case the water pipework as well.  Probably too difficult to consider.

                  It would obviously be significantly easier to remove only the burner to light it.  If you do that you will then have to manhandle a lit burner and fuel tank unit back into the model with a naked flame emitting from one end.  The chances of burning something, such as deck details, rigging, coaming, internals such as wiring, electronics etc. in the process could be significant.

                  I have only ever come across gas burners in enclosed models because they are so much easier to operate, despite the gas cooling challenges.  I have no doubt that there will be some who have tried to operate a pressurised liquid burner in an enclosed model, possibly with some success, but I have no doubt that the risks involved are considerably higher.

                  Lets now consider that we have used the liquid fuel and it’s time for a top up.  The burner and fuel tank unit is now hot so removing it is going to be even more of a challenge.  Then you will fill it and ignite it before going through the process of trying to put it back in the model.  Alternatively you might consider filling the tank in place, but a spill would be too high a risk when doing that and then you would have liquid fuel inside the model that would have to be dealt with before trying to re-ignite the burner.  Filling outside the model if definitely preferable.

                  I’m not trying to put anyone off here, but I am trying to highlight the challenges with such an installation that have to be considered before embarking on a build that could produce a model that is difficult to operate and manage.  This will only lead to disappointment and frustration and, inevitably the model will not get taken out much.  One of the biggest aspects that is so frequently overlooked by steam boat builders is the ease of operation.  This is much more of an issue in an enclosed model and it is much more of an issue with a pressurised liquid burner.

                  I would encourage anyone contemplating building a steam powered model to think through their operating philosophy, see Boiler Room 156, Sept ’24, and how the design of the model is going to support this.  i.e. if the burner and fuel tank assembly is to be removeable how is it going to be held in the model?  Is the deck access big enough to allow easy removal of the burner/tank unit and replacement without the risk of burning something.  I have always agreed that you have to start with a model that interests you, otherwise there is always the danger of loosing enthusiasm during the build, but when considering steam the model has to be easy, convenient and safe to operate as well.  There is no point in building a beautiful model that you are proud of but are reluctant to put it on the water because you are worried about setting fire to it when you put the lit burner in place.

                  As always just food for thought!

                  #125042
                  Ray Wood 3
                  Participant
                    @raywood3

                    Thanks Richard 🙂 ?

                    Do you remember when your Dad said it wasn’t a good idea to do something ? It just made you want to do it more ?

                    I’m experienced with meths firing gauge 1 locos so it could be a bit of fun !!

                    Well I’ve ordered the TID plan , 🙂

                    Regards Ray

                    #125043
                    Richard Simpson
                    Participant
                      @richardsimpson88330

                      As I said, just food for thought.  Its a lot easier to adjust the build to accommodate operating the plant at this stage than it is to have to modify it at a more advanced stage.

                      I’m sure if anyone can make it work you can.

                      #125044
                      Richard Simpson
                      Participant
                        @richardsimpson88330

                        As for my Dad, when I was in my early 20s, long before I could afford to play around with RC and steam plant, my Dad once came home with a steam powered model boat.  He was into buying stuff up at boot sales and selling them on for a profit at the time.  Looking back I suspect it was a Basset Lowke or maybe even an early Stuart Turner.  Looking a little tired but it captured my interest.

                        I of course asked him if I could have it, to which he replied that it should be worth around £20.00 so I could have it for that.  There was no way I had £20.00 to spare in those days so it remained out of my reach.  My annoyance only increased when I asked him what he paid for it and he told me 50p!  He was a Yorkshireman after all.

                        Incensed, when I went back to my next ship I did some sketches on bits of scrap paper and came up with a design for an engine that used bits and pieces of junk brass from the workshop scrap bin.  The cylinder was a broken sounding ‘bob’ from a tank sounding tape and the main body was a couple of brass compression fittings.  The spring came from a scrapped pneumatic shuttle valve and the remaining bits I made in the lathe.  I put it together and next time home took it to show him.  It gave me such a huge amount of satisfaction to be able to show him that I could make my own engine and he could shove his £20.00 boat!  The engine has never seen steam and it has never seen a model boat but I still occasionally run it on compressed air just to give me a smile.

                         

                        30-11-06-10SteamEngineHomeMade1

                        #125045
                        Ray Wood 3
                        Participant
                          @raywood3

                          Hi Richard,

                          Yes dad’s are the one’s who generally set us on course for life ! even If I didn’t realise it when I was younger 🙂 I was surrounded with bits for model aeroplanes, he built a sailing dinghy at home and the whole family were model engineers, so very lucky in so many ways, with easy access to fully equipped workshops 🙂 although my main model room is my garage in the house I still feel like model engineering should be done in the shed 🙂 which is where my old milling machine is, and I have turned into my Dad now 🙂 (thanks Dad)

                          Regards  Ray

                          #125046
                          Chris Fellows
                          Participant
                            @chrisfellows72943

                            Yes, I’m in the same mould to some extent. Whilst I take advice onboard, once I’ve made up my mind to do something a certain way then that’s it. If it goes wrong (but not in an unsafe way!) then so be it. It’s all part of the fun and satisfaction for me and is one of the reasons I’d rather scratch build.

                            Chris

                            #125084
                            Ray Wood 3
                            Participant
                              @raywood3

                              Hi All,

                              Top marks to SARIK plans dept  only 48 hours from ordering it the P N Thomas 1/24th TID drawing is here, the steam plant looks perfect , but in the immortal works ” I think we will need a bigger boat” so i’m going to have the drawing enlarged 15% just to be on the safe side 🙂

                              Regards Ray

                               

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