What to do with old plans

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

Over the years (too many to count) I have gathered a LOT of boat plans, from MAP free jobs to NMM items, and am never going to use a large percentage. It seems unethical to sell them on that (put site of choice here) auction site, as many cost nowt and others have copyright issues. Local club members have their own.

How can I get rid of these plans without just binning them? What do you do with your old ones?

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

[TelstarParticipant @telstar]

Hi Ian, I am unsure what copyright issues you are referring to.

Quote

"Selling second-hand copies
There are generally no restrictions on selling second-hand copies of copyright material provided
that the particular copy was originally produced and acquired lawfully. "

providing you are selling the original plans as secondhand there should be no problem. If ethics is the issue, the you could always donate the proceeds to your choice of charities.

Like you, I feel it is a waste to destroy information, that's why I donate books when I'm finished with them to a organisation that sells them to raise funds.

I would dispose of your plans just as I would dispose of any other secondhand item,

Tom

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

Nothing unethical to sell on as long as originals.
I sell a few on eBay and others at various shows for our RNLI collections donated by various source’s

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Re selling of designs is a litigious minefield and the following points might help explain.

The re selling of designs can impinge on the designers copyright depending upon the circumstances of the original copyright so if you have a paper or digital copy of someone else's design you should always seek written permission from the copyright holder to re sell the design.

The designer might not be the copyright holder, for example the copyright to designs sold by Mr Hobby Shop will belong to Mr Hobby Shop and not the designer (as Mr Hobby Shop has paid the designer for the design and the right to sell the design)

In the example above Mr Hobby Shop makes a living by selling the designs that he holds the copyright on and would be out of pocket on a re-sale of the design. In this case Mr Hobby Shop would be quite within his rights to take legal action to protect the copyright.

The following link is worth reading

**LINK**

[Andy CParticipant @andyc56856]

Also, depending on the boat, some might be of interest to others here. Is it easy to post a list?

Andy

[Paul FreshneyParticipant @paulfreshney24971]

Ian

Reading your original post, if you simply want these unwanted plans to go to a good home and are not too bothered about remuneration for them. why not make a list that interested people can pm you for, and then ask for perhaps £3 or £4 per plan to cover p&p and any surplus give to a suitable charity? That way, the plans are hopefully going to good homes, your storage problem is solved, a charity benefits and you will feel 'good' about it all. If you went via an online auction site, inevitably someone somewhere will be buying a plan to resell at a profit.

There is nothing wrong in your selling on an unwanted plan to someone else as Telstar (Tom) has written. A problem would occur if you copied a plan/design and then sold the copies to new customers.

Selling (or passing on) an unwanted secondhand plan to someone for their practical use is no different to selling a secondhand car, model boat , r/c system etc. in my view.

The NMM do however sell their plans with all sorts of caveats – such as they can't be used to create a new 'model plan' without an additional fee being payable which makes the exercise uneconomic. i possess a complete set of plans for a Ham class inshore minesweeper from NMM. I can use them to create a model, but cannot use them to create a master hull, and then sell mouldings from the plug without paying an additional, and substantial fee. In other words, they want a share of any profits, but on the other hand, i also have a complete set of plans of the Belgian equivalent (6 feet longer) with no such restrictions as they came from the public domain in Euroland.

Hope this helps

Paul Freshney

[TelstarParticipant @telstar]

Paul

In the document from your link. it says (on page 10) that the copyright holder for a document once they have passed the document (sold it ) to the public can't stop resale, providing it is the same document and not a reproduction of the document.

 

Economic Rights
Economic rights give the copyright owner the opportunity
to make commercial gain from the exploitation made of
their works. It also allows an author to take action to claim
compensation for and prevent infringing acts. There are six
economic rights. These rights do not apply to all works, and
we note some of the major distinctions below. The author of a
copyright work has the right to control (by authorising):
(a) The copying of the work in any way (‘the reproduction
right). For example, photocopying, reproducing a
printed page by handwriting, typing or scanning into a
computer, and taping recorded music.
(b) The issuing of copies of the work to the public or the
right to put tangible copies into commercial circulation
(‘the distribution right). For example, a book being
sold to a retailer for sale in a bookshop. This right only
applies the first time a work enters into commercial
circulation and so would not apply to second hand or
charity shops.

So if you obtain a set of plans legitimately and have no use for them you can sell them on, but not copy them then sell them.

Tom

Edited By Telstar on 15/08/2014 17:24:05

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

Ian
I am sure the plans you have are absolutely fine to sell as I said as long as they are not copy’s you will be fine.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dear All

This could go on and on as people will have differing views all that I can say is that having been involved in different types of design for many years intellectual rights and copyright assignment are very complicated and having bought a copy of a design doesn't necessarily transfer the right to resell the design once you have finished with it.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

You are not reselling the design as such, just the bit of paper it is printed on. To my knowledge there has never been a problem in passing on model boating plans that you have previously bought for yourself.

But, as you say, it is a minefield and possibly the issues would be more complex if you were buying the plans on the explicit basis that they could not be passed on which is not the case in respect of model boating plans to my knowledge. It does rather depend upon the conditions of sale in that respect.

Colin

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

As per Colin
my assumption is that they were/are just MB and MMI mags and plans.
I would not sell on any I new to be specific to an individual

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

Looks like I pays me money and takes me choice! I think I either go the 'offer a list of available plans' route or have a word with the chap who runs the local Hospice e-bay shop as I have a nodding acquaintance with him. Thank you for all your input.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi everybody'

This matter is really not that hard.

If you have a plan you can sell it. You paid for it. The piece of paper is your property. You can do what you want with it.

What you cannot do is claim any rights to the ownership of the knowledge contained in those plans. Hence you can sell your original plans but you cannot copy them multiple times and sell those.

From a plan you have purchased, you can make any number of model hulls and sell them as you choose. But, you must acknowledge the source of the design.

I am not a Lawyer but for my sins in another life my wife is!

Len

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I would generally agree with Len on this. But I have made and sold over 200 models in the last 20 years though, and have seldom acknowledged the source of my plans although I have usually said which shipyard built the original ships. No-one has ever said anything! You really can't get a straight answer from museums, so it is difficult to sort the wheat from the chaff. Some years ago, I asked the shipping company I worked for at the time for permission to publish plans of one of their ships I had sailed in and made a model of. Asking did I need to ask the shipbuilders permission to use them. They replied that I was free to use the plans with an acknowledgement to the owners and also added that I did NOT need to ask permission of the shipbuilders, and if I had any problems, contact them again and they would sort it out! I have used plans credited to the shipowners on a number of occasions and no-one has ever said anything about it! These days, people are generally so disorganized they would never notice anything like that anyway! Especially when concerned with merchant ships.

Bob

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Hi Bob You are probably right in what you say . However where possible it is right and proper to acknowledge source material regardless of whether they be plans or information primary or secondary . As you may know if you purchase plans /pictures from a museum archive you need to credit that archive or request permission for use such as reproduction in books or magazines in which case that archive can levy a standing charge. I am aware that some ship owners will cooperate with model makers providing they sign a waver stating that the plans are for their use only and not to be passed on . As for naval vessels it is extremely rare to acquire builders drawings of modern RN warships .

Dave Wooley

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