Vintage Gentleman’s Cruiser

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think you need to be a bit more specific Paul. As I said in my earlier post, the H&S Executive are very irritated that their name is taken to justify all sorts of pettifogging local agendas such as banning playing conkers in school etc.

What for example, are the health & safety issues affecting this particular project which you consider could potentially render you, as the designer, subject to litigation?

I think many of us have had the experience of working under H&S legislation, in my case many years in a local authority property department. To take up on Dave's comment, I was once servicing a school governor's meeting where the chairlady was a H&S officer in a nearby hospital. During the meeting she dramatically produced a small transparent bag of white powder. 'Do you know what this is?' she demanded? So there's me wondering if she has come across a stash of cocaine or similar when she answered her own question – 'It's asbestos, I scraped it off a partition in the toilets under the paint.' Arrrgh! Most schools in the UK have significant quantities of asbestos in their construction and it is managed by identifying, recording it and then sealing it off with a subsequent inspection regime.

You cannot legislate for stupidity.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Colin

I have already indicated that the specification of material or the design ofa model that, when completed would weigh more than 18kg would make me as the designer liable under existing llegislation such as COSSH / LOWLER and the Manual Handling Regulations.

This isn’t my attempt to shock, frighten or panic the readers as I simply wish to demonstrate the potential pitfalls that face ALL designers today.

If you want further clarification I will put together a little piece based upon my current project.

Unfortunately whilst youccan’t legislate against stupidity you can legislate to protect the stupid.

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 26/05/2014 09:47:48

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

Re your HSE chairlady and stupidity.

The lady concerned whilst conducting her grandstanding performance actually made the problem far worse.

Asbestos in panel form is called asbestolux and is asbestos in a Cementitious format which is inert when untouched, the problems with this product arise when the board degrades or is worked on by processes such as drilling or scraping. In the state that you describe i.e. painted, the board is encapsulated (sealed) by the paint and therefore presenting little risk but still a potential problem that should be removed correctly.

Your idiotic HSE woman broke the cardinal rule by scraping the paint off and then scraping the board to produce dust.

It is the dust that is dangerous and NOT the board, this woman has deliberately undertaken to demonstrate her knowledge in an attempt too shock the rest of the assembled governors. When in actual fact what she has done is contaminate herself, the room where the panel is, the corridors and rooms that she visited after the scraping and worse of all …..she has contaminated YOU and the rest of the board. A prime example of a little knowledge being a very dangerous thing.

It only takes one micron of invisible airborne asbestos dust to enter your lungs to cause cancer.

This woman was supposed to know all about the problem and in her grandstanding she has potentially contaminated a large section of a school, the health problems that this irresponsible woman has caused might not surface for years…….like you said you cant legislate for stupidity but it would seem that the school in its wisdom had legislated for the ignorant by having the aforesaid panel sealed with paint.

And whilst talking about asbestos and the ignorant how many of the readers know that Artex contains white asbestos?…….yes look up at your ceiling and if it is a true Artex ceiling then you are sitting under a time bomb…..are you still feeling safe and comfortable

Like you said Colin you cant legislate for stupidity but what about the stupid and the ignorant.

Paul

Sorry to bang on but I have seen first hand what so called experts have done when dealing with asbestos and I have been the one that had to clear up the mess.

 

Edited By Paul T on 26/05/2014 10:39:22

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Paul

I've been in and around the model trade for more years than I care to recall. In all that time I've never come across a domestic model kit manfacturing business that would be a profitable target for "carpet baggers" as you have described. A quick buck is all they would likely make – any more than a few hundred quid awarded in damages and the pot would be empty. As for suing a model designer, well – we aren't exactly talking Sir Norman Foster & Associates here, are we? Lawyers might be greedy but they aren't daft e.g. the very first thing a business administrator or liquidator looks for is enough money to pay his fees!

I admit that I consciously made ACTion into a limited liability company to guard against unforseen litigation, but having spoken since to a lawyer (also a modeller) about the matter he convinced me that the only way that, say, a speed controller could injure anyone would be if it were to be used outwith the normal operating parameters implied by its sales promotion material and described in its instructions. In other words, connecting it to mains electricity or eating it would almost certainly not be recognised by a court as creating a liability for damages against the manufacturer, even if the instructions didn't actually specify it as not being edible etc.

As my friend said, the law might be an ass but few judges are – and neither is the legendary 'man on the Clapham omnibus', the ultimate arbiter of common sense in law.

Notwithstanding all of this, I would like to suggest a suitable warning to be included with all kits and plans:

"Assembling this model may be hazardous to the health of the terminally stupid. If you are in any doubt, take up stamp-collecting instead …..but don't lick them"

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I have Artex and have scraped loads off. I have sanded it. It has probably fallen in my sandwiches.

I am going to start a funeral barge to burn on the pond (Hardboard, of course).

Ashley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Dave

The modelling fraternity and their happy suppliers might not have much in the way of available cash or assets but the suppliers insurance companies offer a vast gold mine of potential cash for the litigious 'where theres a blame' lawyers.

As for not making anything from suing a designer…….you don't have to be a Norman Foster to attract a claim especially when 3rd party and public liability insurance offers the potential of million pound settlements.

We live an age when a postman tripping over a loose flagstone in your path can result in a huge claim against you and your household insurance and burying your head in the sand wont make these claims go away.

Ashley

I sincerely hope that you are joking

Paul

 

Edited By Paul T on 26/05/2014 11:02:40

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dear All

It would seem that I have really opened a Pandora's Box and perhaps it would be best if we returned this thread to its original subject.

Paul

[lnvisiblemanParticipant @lnvisibleman]

Posted by Paul T on 26/05/2014 11:17:50:

Dear All

It would seem that I have really opened a Pandora's Box and perhaps it would be best if we returned this thread to its original subject.

Paul

I wish we would, If we wanted to be on a LAW forum, that's where we would have gone.

Paul. you are in danger of being sued for causing terminal depression on an global scale.

Mike

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Paul has behaved correctly, in highlighting the responsibilities of a model designer, and is not trying to be a Smart Alec or a Party Pooper…..His warnings on dust etc are important and worth keeping in mind

Now back to the business in hand….

Paul……This is the spine idea, I was referring to……….It saves having to make those tedious screwed on bases

Bob

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Paul. you are in danger of being sued for causing terminal depression on an global scale.

Mike
I have already contacted my QC to have him commence drawing up the papers. Do we call it a Class Action on behalf of all the readers who may have inadvertently been subjected to mental trauma? Meantime I'm off to mend a P94 for a customer (using lead-free solder, safety goggles and a Purex Cube fume extractor, of course….).

Can't say this cough is getting any better, though…………

Paul
Mekkit 1/16 scale, fer gawd's sakes! A dodgy prostate's bad enough without getting a ruddy hernia, too.

Bob
If the Lord had meant boats to be split then he'd have had parts made in Portsmouth, Govan, Scotstoun, Rosyth, Birkenhead, Appledore and Hebburn…. (Er, hang on a minute….)

DM

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

I'm easy either way so perhaps you could explain to your followers what the differences are.

[lnvisiblemanParticipant @lnvisibleman]

Dave

Please warn your QC that if he DRAWS up any papers, he may in fact be liable himself.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Paul

Will you take a look on Amazon and select a suitable dust mask and I'll get one right away

I've tested providence long enough!

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Bob

With the kind of work that you are doing the minimum requirement would be what is classified as P2 but I always use a P3….this is the amazon link for the P3 **LINK**

 This is the type of mask that I use as it works with fine wood dust and paint fumes

 

This link is the HSE factsheet for dust masks used in the construction industry. **LINK**

 

Paul

 

Edited By Paul T on 26/05/2014 16:13:54

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Many thanks, Paul

I've ordered the same model that you use

Does this mean I can use that nasty cheap plywood now?

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Yes Bob with that mask you will be able to cut cheap plywood without fear of inhaling anything nasty,

now we need to discuss dust extraction lol

Meanwhile back at the project I'm sorry to say that I have decided to detail the construction of the hull with the tedious frame supporting blocks instead of using your revolutionary spine system. This is because the supporting blocks are comparatively fool proof whereas the spine system does rely on a certain level of skill in preventing the frames from twisting.  

 

Edited By Paul T on 26/05/2014 16:41:07

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

This is an image of the plywood that I think will be best for the keel and frames on this project.

This plywood has great strength owing to its multi laminations and the quality of its construction ensures that the individual veneers are sound, glued and compressed together correctly.

Yes it is expensive (but cheaper than marine ply) and you don't want to cut corners on quality when building a model of this size.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Looks lovely plywood, Paul, but it'll be more than likely to be bowed!

Much better to glue two sheets back to back

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

This ply wont bow, it is a quality product that will stand up to a lot of abuse as it is made up of top quality veneers and glues that have been pressure clamped together.

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob
As usual you point the way forward as not everyone will be willing to spend money on expensive plywood especially when they can double up with thinner cheaper alternatives.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Well, that's very noble of you, Paul

I would have used the cheap stuff myself and taken the bow out by glueing two layers together

It does produce dead flat and extra rigid formers and keels, by that method

I keep thinking about the Timimg belt drive idea and how nice it would look in your latest model?

How about a nice Cad layout of it?……I would enjoy building such a drive…..Twice the power down one chunky propshaft!

It could be used in further models too

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob
I would like to oblige with the cad image but at the moment I have some extracricular work to do so I will have to decline.
You are very handy with a drawing board so perhaps you could put pencil to paper and knock out a little sketch to show the hard of thinking, like Ashley, what you mean.
Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

No problem, Paul

I`m just knocking up the real thing……..`ish…………It`ll be instantly understood!

You will like it!

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

You didn't have to go that far but it will be an excellent example of your engineering prowess.

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

Look what I found

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