Vintage Gentleman’s Cruiser

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Whilst we are thinking about the overall size of the project the designer also has to consider current legislation.

Yes the health and safety people can, and do reach as far as our little hobby. When designing any model i have to specify materials in accordance with COSHH (control of substances hazadardous to health) and when its a heavy model I have to take into account The Manual Handling Regulations.

The designer has to consider which materials are safe to use and how these materials interact with each other.

The designer also has to consider the overall size and weight of the model and specify how the safe transport, launching and recovery is to take place

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

And while you're at it…..Don't forget the CE mark!

I used to be in charge of COSSH regs and Health and Safety and BS5750!….What a rude awakening that was!

Horror of horrors……If a person designs a model and publishes it…..That person could be liable for all sorts of nonsense?

Some one had better look into this?……..Especially…..My Hobby Shop?

We may have opened a Can of Worms here and Pandora's Box!

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Bob
As far as I am aware a CE mark is only required on finished / manufactured goods and not on designs.

But you are correct in the statement that designers have legal obligations to ensure that their designs can be constructed and used safely.
You might be supprised to learn that a 5ft model boat could well exceed the requirements of the Manual Handling Regs when launching and recovering and might well come under mechanical lifting.

If so I will have to specify a safe means of mechanical handleing ….ie a trailer based launch from a slipway.

Its not so difficult when you understand all of the regs but it is time consuming allowing for all of them when doing a design.

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 25/05/2014 09:51:33

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Oh come on guys, these are toy boats for heaven's sake. Regulations, Elf''n'safety? If you design a shape and publish it, it's all up to the purchaser of the plans how he builds it. If he wants to make it in dirty, stinking fibreglass or nice clean plywood with mahogany planking, it's up to him. If he's a weakling, he'll build light. If he knows what he's doing, he'll have realised that a big boat has to be heavy to float on its marks, but ballast can be carried separately and put in bit by bit at the pond side. ALL of us old farts are starting to get the knee problems. You have to make the choice. And, btw, nice clean mahogany is carcinogenic in dust form as are most woods, especially hard woods. So what, do it outside in a breeze.

I don't see how a shape sketcher can possibly be regulated. If so, what of all the people who design their own. If these ballistic missiles can be a danger to our poor stupid selves, they can be a wicked threat to everybody else. (Tongue in cheek symbol)

And what about racing craft? Steam craft? A-Class yachts which HAVE to be heavy to fit a certain class and are HUGE?

This is a harmless hobby. Let's keep it that way and keep the anal rule mongers out of it.

Paul, design a model boat and leave the materials (and all the whingeing job's worths) out of it. Job done.

I don't see any differences to essential shape twixt 20s and 30s boat at all. Just some rubbing strakes. You can't change the hull shape without a major rebuild.

Martin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Martin

The steam engine and the boiler brigade had better get their sums right!

Bob

PS…..What about those new fangled LiPo batteries?…..They can be very dangerous in Newbies hands

 

Edited By Bob Abell on 25/05/2014 10:59:12

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Martin

Thank you for your very eloquent reply which probably reflects the views of many readers.

I am sorry to say that you are 100% wrong in your assumptions as the designer is absolutely responsible for the actions of the model builder as he / she follows the instructions.

For example: if in the choice of materials to build the gentleman's cruiser I specified Iroko as the best timber for the keel I could and would be liable for indirectly causing you a life threatening problem.

Iroko dust causes asthma and other respiratory problems and in specifying the material without informing you of the problems and what safety precautions to take would make me liable under the COSHH regulations.

Even specifying certain plywoods can cause the same problems if the correct safety precautions are not taken.

You might think that a simple statement saying use a dust mask when cutting wood might cover the respiratory risks but you would be wrong as I would have to specify a certain type of mask (P2) and what method of mechanical ventilation would be required.

I am sorry to say that we live in a very litigious age and the 'where there's a claim' brigade will jump all over the naïve, irresponsible and lazy. The days of 'you are responsible for your own safety' are long gone.

I have attached a link to the HSE page on the health problems linked to timbers, some of the risks identified might make you think twice about cutting timber without wearing a proper mask (and not one of those packs of 10 dust masks bought from a pound shop…these are only fit for use when brushing up outside on a windy day)

**LINK**

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Just to press the point home:

How many model builders use foreign plywood?

How many realise that some of these plywoods are glued together using substances that when turned to dust (when cutting with a saw) produce a carsagenic just as lethal as asbestos dust.

Are you all thinking hard now?

Paul

Edited By Paul T on 25/05/2014 11:40:25

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Next on the designers list of things to worry about is the completed (all up weight) weight of the model:

If it weighs more than 2kg but less than 18kg then it might be subject to the Manual Handling Regulations and if the model is heavier than 18kg then it could come under LOLER regs (Lifting Operations and Lifting Equipment Regulations)

Yes all of this is over the top for a simple model and yet it is part of current legislation and the shape sketcher, to borrow Martins phrase, is 100% responsible for all that these laws entail.

Paul

and we haven't touched paints, glues, electrical, launching & recovery……the list goes on….and on…..and on.

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Sorry to have messed up your thread Paul, but your mention of COSSh regulations has opened the flood gates to the legislation rules!

I must admit to breaking quite a few of the dust rules etc

I once cut up a Mahogony door, in the workshop on the circular saw, a few years ago and was quite poorly for days afterwards!…..And that cheap plywood is really unpleasant

Lately, I've found that the humble Balsa is really becoming a problem for me

Another obnoxious substance is Superglue!

As you have mentioned, rubbing paintwork down is not to be taken lightly

I really should have know better having worked in the Brake lining industry for quite a few years

All good advice, chaps…..Give it some thought next time you get involved with any of the above subjects

Bob

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Paul. I think, in the light of these quite serious and reasonable regulations, that you should forthwith stop designing boats totaly and straight away.

Bob. I think you should stop building boats straight away lest you contract some awful desease. And that goes for the rest of you. Sit inside, do nothing and DONT WATCH THE TELLY as its well known you will get eye strain.

Ashley (dictating this to the wife as I will get RSI otherwise and also damage my eyes from the RF radiation from the screen and suffer also bad posture leading to premature limb failure)

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Ashley

Whilst listing your ailments you forgot your trench foot, premature baldness and advancing myopia.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Yes, I didnt see that one coming.

Ashley ( High forehead, please..)

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

You can laugh, Ashley…..But Paul will have to stay within the aforesaid guidelines, otherwise, he would be liable in the event of an incident

We have an ex Health and Safety expert amongst our readers, it would be nice to have his unbiased opinion on the matter…..I think it's Kimmo?

Hope you have considered the implications regarding your Public D Day celebrations?

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Now that we have done health and safety to death (pardon the pun) its time to get back to the project.

The keel is drawn

But how do we choose the correct material to make it from…..bearing in mind that the main frames will also be made from the same material.

What do the readers think is the best material?

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Paul……In view of the H & S implications, I would use several layers of Birch ply and PVA glue?

Are you going to use the central spine idea, as we did for the Brutus build?

Bob

[mike farrellParticipant @mikefarrell21522]

Hi Paul and all,Glad to see the humour return to the Forum . I,m not sure I will take any notice of H&S as I,ve never been one for convention Will move the saws into the yard except in winter when I,ll leave the doors open and maybe get some of those extra good masks (how do I explain all this to my leader)

As to the length if I can leave my leader at home I could make a 5 ft model if not it will have to be shortened .

Would shuttering ply do ,I think you can get that up to 1 inch thick how do I cut it ,I suppose with the router. All problems for the futureMichael

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

The material for the keel and frames has to be strong, sound (no holes or gaps in any laminations) rigid enough to remain straight but not oversized as we have to consider the overall weight of the final model.

Bob

This is going to be a plank on frame model

 

Edited By Paul T on 25/05/2014 20:38:51

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

You will still need a building spine of some sort?….How thick is the spine?

What about a water filled hull?…..If you dare!

Bob

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

So Mike…..Paul's words of wisdom have had some effect on you after all?

Well done, Paul and Bob

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

The Health & Safety Executive are always complaining that their name is being taken in vain!

It just comes down to common sense really in my view.

If you are promulgating a particular construction method then it is indeed sensible to alert builders to potential hazards of which they may be assumed to be unaware such as the possible consequences of working with Iroko as Paul mentions.

But individuals still have a duty of care to themselves. If they buy LiPo batteries as Bob mentions then the batteries will come with written advice on their charging and care and it is the responsibility of the purchaser to read and take notice of that.

Likewise, if the big model turns out to be very heavy and they overbalance and end up in the pond then that is their fault as the weight of the model would be quite obvious and it is up to them to act accordingly.

It should not be necessary to warn against using hammers, craft knives and (God forbid) scalpels as the potential danger of using these tools should be perfectly obvious. If somebody chooses to cut towards themselves and takes off the end of their finger, well, that is their responsibility.

On the other hand, if people publish recipes for making pyrotechnics (as has happened previously on this Forum) then I would remove the references as being potentially dangerous to persons not familiar with the hazards of working with potentially explosive material.

Nothing is perfectly safe, lots of people come to grief just crossing the road!

Colin

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Paul, I'm surprised you bother, if all that H&S crap is the law. But I do wonder how good old Vic Smeed got round it, or Phil Smith or Les Rowell, all of whose designs are still being made by dozens of people with a sensible attitude to materials, practices, etc. Most wood dust is carcinogenic. Ureol dust is nasty stuff if breathed, which is why I do as little sanding as possible on my masters (using chisels mainly) and always outside, even in winter.

All ply is foreign these days. The last birch ply mill closed a few years ago in England. But that's what I use for frames and keels because Ivan at Vintage Model Boats gave me a load a year ago for designing some boats for his laser cutter. So far no numbskull has come looking for us because he cut his finger on a kit or breathed in paint dust. And I never look a gift horse, etc. They can all come looking for me if they like for designing something that they make out of the wrong stuff. I wouldn't specify materials anyway. I draw a boat. They make it out of chewing gum and string if they want to! I've written articles on building in steamed pearwood, stuff that now makes me itch, or Ureol, which is just plain nasty, but is the new patternmakers' material.

If you can pick and choose your trade, fine, but I can only live by making models and use whatever works. I can't use a mask because it steams up my glasses, but am as careful as I can be, not because some sad busy body tells me to. If he tried he'd be given damned short shrift. I will not be constrained by pointless law makers. let 'em sue. I don't have a pot to pee in anyway! And I'm happy as a pig in shit because of it.

I shall now leave this topic alone and this forum, because once again the rule lovers and lickspittles have spoiled it for me and any other common sense individuals. And individuals are what modelmakers are supposed to be.

Build and be damned. I have for 61 years and nobody has knocking on my door. mind you, I'd like to see 'em try with 5 dogs to greet them<G>

Over and out.

Martin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Martin
I am sorry that my words have upset you as this wasn’t my intention.
The long winded excursion into health and safety was simply to demonstrate the problems faced by all designers these days and I certainly didn’t mean to impinge upon the individual builders rights by suggesting that law makers should govern how the individual works in their own home.

My honest intent was simply to point out some of the pitfalls that today’s designers face especially with the rise of ‘where there’s claim’ lawyers who are happy to sue the unsuspecting over some minor detail.

As I said it wasn’t my intention to upset anybody.

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob
The keel will be the spine of this build and the hull will be designed to be built inverted on a building board just the same as the Ellie boats.

No this one won’t be a free flooding hull but it might have pumped ballast tanks.

The keel and frames will be 9mm
Your idea to build up the thickness using laminations of thinner ply is an excellent one as this will create a very strong and rigid structure.

Mike
I have used shuttering ply before but with poor results as the voids within the sheet made it brittle when cut down to make frames. 1in shuttering ply will make an excellent building board.

The material that I will be designing the keel and frames for the 5ft model is 9mm BB grade birch ply and the shortermodel will use 6mm.

Paul

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

MY fondest memory of the HSE was when I was working at True Line, a model aircraft kit manufacturers in the early 70s. We had many powered machines, including a bench saw, bandsaw, spindle moulder, router and a vicious beast called a radial-arm saw. This was nothing more or less than a circular saw slung underneath an arm above bench level. You set the blade height above the bench and the angle which you wanted to cut, then grabbed the handle and pulled the whole thing towards you – with that blade spinning at God-knows what speed. The boss called it the most expensive modelling knife in the world. We cut balsa, obechi, beech and expanded polystyrene and had a proper dust extraction system. You've got the message.

Came the day when The Dragon from the HSE arrived. She marched around the workshop, issuing quite ridiculous demands about machine guards (on a bandsaw?), riving knives, harmful substances etc etc but she avoided the radial-arm saw like it wasn't there. Finally one of the lads asked her about using a guard with this thing. She replied that she had no jurisdiction over it and as far as she was concerned we could do what we liked!!

My question about their jurisdiction is simple. While they have the power of life and death over trades people i.e. those who are exposed to hazards through their work, does it extend to voluntary activities like hobbies? If so it might be one of those pieces of legislation which proves to be unenforceable – or un-policeable at the very least. I would imagine that Paul's experience in the building and civil engineering business naturally focuses his attention on this aspect of design. Speaking as a model designer of some years I have to admit that I've never given it a thought.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Morning Dave

I’m sorry to say that the carefree halcion days of Vic Smeed have long gone and that the straight jacket of rules that now govern the construction industry are extending their tendrils into all aspects of model building and whilst it would be unpolicable in the domestic environment they are very easily enforced at the commercial level.

As you quite rightly said I have had years of experience with working within these rules but i fear that many existing model designers and kit suppliers are in for some very nasty shocks especially when some unscrupulous carpet bagger realises that they can make a quick buck by using the existence legislation to sue some happless model company.

Its not a nice world anymore.

Paul

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