Newbie looking for best boat for mini steam marine engine

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Find I have time on my hands (semi-retired), a pool in the backyard and cottage north of me in Canada, and want to build a wooden boat (abs hull) with a mini working marine steam engine, but don't know where to start. Any suggestions, place to go to get info, specific boat(s) to start with, best starter steam engine etc. Fairly handy building cottages, just not in miniature… Thanks in advance. Derek/Kanata/Canada

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Hi Derek,

As an absolute beginner it's best to do a bit of online research and reading up.

You could start with a Krick kit.

**LINK**l

Our resident expert Richard Simpson has written a lot about starting off with steam models and getting back issues of magazines with some of his articles would be a good place to begin. Hopefully he will see this topic.

Colin

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Colin,

Thanks, good advice. will get a subscription to be able to read his (Richard Simpson) articles. Liked the Krick Borkum or Anna. Will do much more research before I take the plunge. D.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Derek

There's a lot to be said for joining a model boat club (or even a full-size one as they sometimes have modelling interests).

Don't know if you've got one in your part of the world, but, as well as having a great deal of knowledge, they can be a good source of parts, kits (some semi-built) and much more…

Good luck with your first project (let us see some photos of the steamer !)

Dave

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Hi Derek and welcome to the forum. Starting from nothing is not easy to guide someone through as there is so much unknown on both my side and yours however a few basic thoughts might help. As Colin says a subscription to Model Boat Magazine to give you access to back issues and a large number of steam related articles would be useful reading. There are some useful books as well and, as Dave mentions, joining a club with a resident steam enthusiast is invaluable.

Failing that we are here as well!

Very basic thoughts to give your research a bit of direction.

1) Go for an open hull as opposed to a closed one for your first model. It is easier to operate and maintain and is an invaluable learning tool. Progress to an enclosed hull as a future project.

2) Use a kit to get you off the ground. The Krick ones are perfect for the beginner while still allowing plenty of scope for personalisation. I am a great fan of the Borkum however the Anna is even simpler to build but you might find it a little restrictive sooner. The Victoria has huge potential and can be made into a beautiful model.

3) Start with a simple plant, preferably all on a common base and provided as a complete plant by the manufacturer. Have a look at the Miniature Steam range in Australia. For the Borkum the Clyde plant is perfect. Avoid the complications of feed water but consider controlling gas consumption with an attenuator valve.

4) Learn as much as you can about the gas cooling effect and how it can be accomodated in your model. Disposable gas tanks are more flexible to use for a beginner but your plant may already be fitted with a refillable tank. You will have gas cooling challenges with a small gas tank and the lower temperatures found in Canada.

5) When you get your complete plant on a base play around with it on your workbench to get familiar with operating it. Then take it outside and play around with it again in different temperatures to see how differently it behaves. Learn why and what you can do operationally to minimise some of these effects. An attenuator valve and disposable gas tanks both play a big part in this.

That, in conjunction with some article reading, should give you enough to be thinking about for a while!

Any more questions feel free to ask here.

Edited By Richard Simpson on 09/02/2020 20:08:13

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard,

Brilliant suggestions, am looking for a club in the Ottawa area as we speak. It is -31 celcius today, so no opportunity to go to the rivers or ponds to talk the model boaters. Very much appreciate your approach to reading and research as a first step. Once I decide on the right kit and power plant, will share my journey of discovery with the forum – let's to learn.

Derek

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Derek, I used to work on merchant ships between the UK and Montreal. I once had to look after refueling on deck in -32 C, a memory that has always remained very clear in my mind!

I'm looking forward to hearing which direction you decide to take.

Good luck

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard/Colin,

Getting warmer here, only -3 today. I took the forum's advice and am going to a Modelers club meeting March 4 in my area that has some guys with steam capacity/expertise. They hope to have a few people bring their steam fitted boats for a look. Also talking (via email) to miniaturesteammodels in Australia re: what they think is a good match for the Borkum boat. Can't wait for the ice to leave and see the boats on the ponds, but that is months away sadly…

Thanks for being there to ask questions. Going to get subscription to MB next week (digital).

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Excellent news Derek, you will learn a lot from the club just by looking at the models and asking questions.

Miniature Steam are also extremely helpful and, I am sure, will be able to suggest the right plant for the Borkum. I actually did a review in Model Boat Magazine a few years ago of the Clyde plant and fitted it into my own Borkum for a test run. If you cannot find the article when you gain on line access to back copies let me know and I will find out which issue it was in.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard,

Will look for that article on your Borkum/Miniature Steam.

I did contact John at Miniature Steam re: your suggestion of a attenuator valve.

­He replied: "I do not recommend a gas control valve on a 3" boiler. The savings in gas and extended run time are very limited. Gas control valves are more suited to our 4" boiler steam plant range. If you have your heart set on one we can supply and fit one.

What do you think, is it a nice to have not a must have (for a beginner like me).

Again thanks for your time.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard/Colin,

A quick question. A hobby shop in my town has a Billings 588 "African Queen" on sale half the price of my choice "Borkum" (and in stock, no shipping costs). The guys at MSM have said if I go this route, I should go with the 4034 economy steam plant/Avon with reversing capability not the ‘Clyde 3” steam plant. The Avon is best suited for boats under 900mm. As a newbie is this a good start to get into this craft/hobby, or should I stay with the Borkum/Clyde steam plant?

Thanks for your time.

D.

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Derek, Firstly I missed your question regarding the attenuator valve.

Personally, and I admit it is only my personal preference, I would always use some form of either electronic or mechanical gas control valve. I agree that gas saving may be minimal but I much prefer my own steaming to be slow and controlled rather than rushing around the pond simply to prevent the safety valve from lifting. I really do not like to see the safety valve lifting as it is not only wasting your gas but also your water and it just doesn't look like you are in control to me. I would far rather be able to manoeuvre around nice and slowly and yet push the throttle forward if I want. Also lifting the safety can spray hot water all over your model.

As regards the African Queen, I saw the movie only a few weeks ago and, as many have done before me, fell in love with the boat. It would make a lovely steam model subject but probably open up the arguments for and against weathering. There are advantages and disadvantages with the main advantages being cost and the ability to be able to use a smaller steam plant in it. Against that the Clyde, being a little bit bigger, possibly lends itself easier to modifications in the future and I think you will find that a Krick kit goes together a little bit easier than a Billings kit. This might make the build a little easier for a starter model.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard,

Thanks for the advice. As much as I would like to save money, I think the Borkum/MSM Clyde combination gives me more flexibility for future and am leaning that way. John/MSM said he could source the gas value that would fit my needs. (**LINK**). Also said a whistle would work well with the Clyde.

My club meeting in first week in March. After that I will make my decision which way I will go. Thanks for your reply.

D.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard,

Quick question, my boat kit and steam plant are on a 3 week backorder from miniaturesteam (Aus). In the meantime I want to get ready with tools and glue for the wood boat/ABS hull/steam plant. Any suggestions ?

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Hi Derek, Tools is a whole subject in itself, in fact I did an article on tools for model boat magazine a couple of years ago. Just some suggestions:

Steel Rule, 6" and 12"

Knives, I would go for a Stanley knife with a retracting blade for the heavier ply and a scalpel handle and a few packets of blades for finer work. Best blades are number 11s and number 10s.

Good pencil, plastic and very cheap, propelling are good with a 0.5mm tip and medium lead inserts.

Abrasives, massive range of ready made abrasive tools but a packet of assorted wet and dry grades is a good start. You can cut them up and glue the bits to pieces of wood to make sanding boards and tape pieces to a flat board to make useful sanding surfaces.

Good cutting board, self healing mats are good, I would go for an A2 size.

Glues, for wood to wood I always use some form of PVA, either a woodworking glue such as Resin W or one of the very good model railway general purpose PVAs such as Speed Bond. For wood to ABS and metal to ABS a two part epoxy is good, I always buy Araldite, which is more expensive but I know it is reliable and good quality. Roughen the surface up with some course wet and dry before assembling. Avoid the rapid variety as that tends to not be as water resistant plus the normal variety gives you much longer to adjust the positioning of things before it fully cures. Leave overnight.

For the steam plant if MSM can give you exact dimensions of the base you can start to design the bearers to go in the base of the model. I would strongly advise that you design the model to allow everything to be removed on a single base. You then need just four simple screw fasteners to hold it down onto captive set screws. I would also use a very simple pin arrangement on the drive shaft so that does not require disconnection and a connection to the control valve and the servo using a clevis means that the plant can be removed in a couple of minutes.

That should start you off.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard, Colin and others,

Thanks for the "tips" — they are going to be very useful. Starting to put together things from the list I already had and what I need to get. (**LINK**) With the MSM "Wattle" kit on backorder, I finally got through to Krick and secured my first choice – "Borkum" and hope it is on its way with all the turmoil in the world – will be looking out my window for the DHL truck. can't wait.

As we are all told to do social distancing, it is great to be able to follow a passion and yet be close to experts virtually who can help me on my journey – great to know you are all there. When I finish the project, I hope I will be able to show it off to you and my new club mates and sail the Borkum at the lake.

Happy virtual sailing, be safe.

D.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Derek,

Once you get carried away with the hobby you'll end up with this lot but you will never be bored 😀

Regards Ray

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Cool, can't wait to reach that nirvana.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard/Colin,

Here is where I am at with my version of the Borkum. Learning tons and making mistakes, but loving it – good for the soul in these trying times. Have ordered the 3" Clyde Steam plant form MSM and they shipped it 4 weeks ago. Problems with flights/cargo/postage to Canada due to COVID-19. Here's hoping it comes soon.

**LINK**

**LINK**

Can't wait to spend the time learning how to run a steam plant.

Cheers, Derek

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Hi Derek, Glad to hear you are enjoying the build. I'm sure you will also enjoy the Miniature Steam plant and find it well matched to the Borkum.

I actually really like the hull in one solid colour and it saves having to get the boot topping perfect! It gives it more of a workboat character which suits the model.

I'm looking forward to seeing what you make of the plant and how it looks in the boat.

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Thanks. I agonized over which approach to take re: the hull. As I built the boat I began to see it more as a "working" island hopper and wanted to capture that. I remember in a thread you mentioned the discussion people had concerning the African Queen – pristine vs distressed. I hope to have fun with it on the rivers or ponds not a model for the shelf (that might come) but now it is about action. So in the end, instead of a red boot topping I went with black and red pinstripping. The colours red and green are for my heritage and honour my father from Wales. I plan a Cymru flag. I have named it "Cariad" meaning love.

(**LINK**) I hope Krick do not mind that I changed her name.

Thanks, and will keep you up-to-date when I enter the crazy world of steam…

Derek

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard Simpson et al,

FINALLY got my steam plant from Australia. It is a thing of beauty. Reread your article in Model Boat September 2012 and proceeded to fire my beauty up.

It went well for the first 20 seconds then the second cylinder stopped. http://www.morfa.ca/Cariad.mp4 .

After some great on-line help, I realized my mistake. I did not tighten all my screws/grub nuts and the flyweights loosened. I did have the degree wrong 180⁰ not 90⁰ and found that all I had to do was find the flat on the crankshaft then tighten the hex nut. Once I did that it was success again. It runs very well out of boat. Next step to put it in the boat. **LINK**

Derek

[Derek EllisParticipant @derekellis82329]

Richard Simpson,

Questions:

1. Your article said the boiler is 60 PSI. My documentation says 35 PSI. That is what I am running. Was your 60 PSI due to yours being an evaluation plant?

2. My control arm that manages the forward reverse and speed points to the stern. When I try and adjust the wire to the servo it is not a clean motion. Is there a better way to adjust the steam plant to a servo. Your picture in the article has it has the control arm pointing to the starboard side. Can I change mine?

3. In your opinion, what is the best way to connect the steam plant crankshaft to the propeller shaft. Direction connection, universal joint etc?

**LINK**

**LINK**

Thank you for steering me to first the Borkum and then the MSM Clyde steam plant. Hope to get on the water soon.

Derek

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Hi Derek,

To answer your questions,

1) As manufacturers are continually developing their plant and the article was now 8 years ago I would go by the latest documentation. I have checked with the Miniature Steam Web site where it confirms that the 3 inch boilers are tested to 60 psi and are quoted as having a working pressure of 35 psi. Technically according to UK rules this should be no more than 30 psi, unless you want to put your boiler through a hydraulic test of 70 psi. I am sure that if your engine works fine at 35 psi it will work as well at 30 psi, although slightly slower! Don't forget your safety valve cannot be set any higher than 30 and your pressure gauge should be marked with a red line at 30 as well.

2) Without getting my own Clyde out and having a play, which I might just do on compressed air this afternoon, I seem to remember that the control valve works in more than one attitude. If you have a supply of compressed air have a play, otherwise I'll see what I can find out. I am sure it works in more than one attitude though, in pretty much the same way as the Cheddar engines did. Therefore all you need to do is to rotate the control valve disc to a more convenient attitude.

3) My Borkum uses a very simple 'dog' clutch. When I first saw it I decided immediately to change it for something more sophisticated however as soon as I started to use it and, when I first removed the plant, I soon realised that it was extremely simple yet efficient and very convenient. I will try to dig out a picture but it consists of basically a pin located in the flywheel, offset by a few millimeters and parallel to the main shaft. The pin has a plastic sheath over it. On the end of the prop shaft is a small collar with a screw threaded into it, also covered by a plastic sheath. The length and position of the pins allows them to interfere when the engine turns. The collar on the shaft can also be adjusted to ensure no end play in the prop shaft and the plastic sheathing ensures quiet and smooth operation. Highly recommended.

I hope this helps and gets you a little closer to getting your Borkum on the water.

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