Brushless motors

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Brushless motors

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18 May 2015 at 16:36 #57818
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Greetings

Have bought a new brushless motor with matching esc,worked perfectly first time,, tried to start it second time, all I got was beeping sound and motor just jerks ,any suggestions anyone.? I have remade all connections.

Regards
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18 May 2015 at 16:36 #5370
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
No go
18 May 2015 at 17:17 #57819
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Where did you buy it from?
18 May 2015 at 18:15 #57821
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Bryan. You have a manual??? the bleeping means something. It is also likely to be set for Lipo batts and unless you are using them it will need reprogramming.

Ashley
19 May 2015 at 09:26 #57827
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Greetings Ashley

According to the manual the beeping sound suggests the output ports are not connecting well with the motor or the transmitter rod is not in the lowest position ?

Dave

I bought it from Hong Kong and this is the first time I have had any problem buying anything from China. I am in close contact with the vendor through Amazon and so far they have been very helpful, time will tell.

Regards

Bryan
19 May 2015 at 10:42 #57829
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Bryan

Do you have another brushless motor which you can connect to the ESC? That would isolate the problem to either the motor or the ESC.
Check the wires where they enter the motor case. I've heard it said that this area is weak on some motors and should be supported with a blob of silicon gunk. Maybe the insulation has stripped from one wire etc? My Hawk 18A ESC bleeps loudly whenever I switch on but this only seems to signify that it's working!

Dave M
19 May 2015 at 11:11 #57830
Dodgy Geezer 1
Participant
@dodgygeezer1
Brushless motor ESCs are a strange beast.

Brushed motor ESCs are simple by comparison. They just take a mark/space signal from the receiver, and output a (PWM) 'variable voltage'.

Brushless ones are a small computer.

They might do anything, depending on the programming set up. They might start by detecting the mark-space ratio on the channel they are connected to, and set that as 'zero'. They usually start up in 'programming mode', which means that they are expecting you to tell them:

1 – if you are using LiPos or Nimh

2 – if you want a regenerative brake or not

3 – where you want the Voltage cut-off

4 – your choice of timing angle

5 – start-up rate

6 – …….

This can all be signalled to the ESC in several ways – wiggling the throttle stick is one common method. The Beeps tell you when to do the wiggling.

For safety,brushless ESCs often do nothing until you have moved the throttle stick fully down, then up again, then down. This stops sudden powerful starts when you switch on…

I suspect that you might have the ESC in programming mode. Here is an example ESC manual which indicates the sort of thing you need to do to get it to work – this is just an example, we don't know what your ESC is. But once you have seen it, you will have a better idea of the kind of thing you are dealing with…

**LINK**

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 19/05/2015 11:13:55

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 19/05/2015 11:17:08
19 May 2015 at 11:39 #57831
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Bryan. If it is a forward only esc, you should put the throttle lever fully down and the trim down as well, or the ESc will not arm, this is what mine are like.

Ashley
19 May 2015 at 16:55 #57853
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Dave

I haven't got another brushless motor to try but I have another brushless esc that I will try, the vendor has said he will send another replacement if I send the other parts back, I don't know how much that will cost.

Ashley

I went into the garage this morning connected the battery and the motor burst into life,but the transmitter throttle worked in reverse, the fast position slowed the motor down and the slow position sped the motor up,then suddenly the motor stopped and just bleeped. The motor was not hot neither was the esc

Dodgy

I read the instructions and they seemed very complicated , does anybody know of a brushless system that is almost plug and play, I am beginning to regret entering the mysterious world of brushless motors.

Regards to you all

Bryan
19 May 2015 at 17:52 #57856
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Bryan

(Sorry if this sounds offensively stupid, but you haven't reversed the throttle channel on your transmitter, have you? No – I thought not. Forgive me but it had to be asked……)

I've recently ventured into this minefield so I thought I'd take careful baby-steps. First of all I took Paul Freshney's recommendation of a motor and ESC (i.e. a combination which he has used). Then I bought them from a UK supplier (Micron). I also bought a programming card – not expensive – and sat and read the instructions until I could just about recite them.

With the instructions in front of me I programmed the ESC very slowly, but the damn thing never told me when I'd finished – it just went back to the first step! I did this twice and then thought "Well, let's try it anyway". It worked perfectly and has continued to do so.

It is a bit hit-and-miss, especially when it comes to 'Chinglish' instructions. I now have another different combination and I'm approaching the programming with a bit less trepidation that the first one. I would very much recommend using a programming card. There's no mad panic to wiggle the stick in the right direction before the LEDs tell you it's too late, and if you stay with the same manufacturer's ESCs then the card will work for all of their controllers. You can also tweak many more parameters than you can by just using the Tx stick.

My motor is a Turnigy 2822/17 and the ESC is a Fusion Hawk 18A, with the corresponding Fusion programming card. The little motor puts out at least as much oomph as a Speed 600 on a 3S LiPo pack and I was pleasantly surprised at how good the low-speed control was. I was also delighted to find that the ESC does forward and reverse! I've now bought a Leopard 2826/17 motor and 30A ESC from Component Shop, with the corresponding Hobbywing card from Giant Shark.

Sending parts back to China is very much more expensive than it is the other way, because the Chinese government heavily subsidises export freight charges. It might even pay you to cut your losses and throw the offending part away.

Fingers crossed that you sort it out.

Dave M
19 May 2015 at 18:34 #57857
Dodgy Geezer 1
Participant
@dodgygeezer1
…I haven't got another brushless motor to try but I have another brushless esc that I will try, the vendor has said he will send another replacement if I send the other parts back, I don't know how much that will cost.…

The bad news is that that will cost a lot – the good news is that you (probably) have a perfectly working ESC. Your problem is understanding how it operates.

…I went into the garage this morning connected the battery and the motor burst into life,but the transmitter throttle worked in reverse, the fast position slowed the motor down and the slow position sped the motor up,then suddenly the motor stopped and just bleeped. …

if you alter the programming this is a good example of what might happen….

…I read the instructions and they seemed very complicated , does anybody know of a brushless system that is almost plug and play…

Welcome to The World of Tomorrow! Where only a child of 5 can understand the machinery!

The more expensive ESCs tend to have better software and a better user interface – but they're all rather similar to that link I just showed you. Dave is right that a programming card (if you have a suitable ESC) is easier…

Can you tell us which ESC you have? It sounds like one where you need to set the Tx into a certain position before switching on the Rx/ESC – eg throttle low.

One approach is just to turn things on and sit there moving the throttle up and down many times until the beeping stops. Then you will have a working ESC, though it may not be programmed exactly corredtly for your systems. If you're using Ni-Mh batteries, this may hardly matter…

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 19/05/2015 18:34:39

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 19/05/2015 18:36:28
21 May 2015 at 15:34 #57899
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Dodgy

ESC is an RCs WK-WST 30amp 14HC BEC.

Dave

After some discussion with the vendor I am now to be sent another motor FOC .

I intended to fit the motor in my Sea Cmmander, so for the time being I am fitting a 700 series Johnson motor that was in a drawer, see what happens.

Another stupid question, In the Sea Commander all works well until when I stop the motor with the transmitter, and I turn the transmitter off the motor bursts into life again I have ever encountered this before any ideas.

Can you run a brushless motor with any brushless esc, as long as the amperage is correct ,just as a matter of interest
21 May 2015 at 16:28 #57901
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Bryan

The golden rule is Transmitter on first and off last. If you leave the receiver on with no corresponding transmission it is open to any and every spurious signal around. For safety's sake stick to the rule.
I'm no expert on brushless motors but as far as I know they all work the same way and so any ESC should be OK, subject to current rating etc. The exception may be for motors with sensors, but you'd have to ask elsewhere for the answer to that one.
Your Sea Commander should be OK with a 700 motor – that's the one that Caldercraft supply with their kit.

Dave
22 May 2015 at 08:38 #57908
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Everyone.

Rule No1; Do not buy a brushless ESc unless you can get a program card for it. They really are plug`n`play with a program card. There is no room for doubt or error when using one.

After programming a brushless ESc, the motor/esc combination is simply that,. a motor and esc…its not rocket science..but will appear to be so if the ESc is not set correctly.

Any brushless will work with any brushless ESC just like a brushed combo. Some ESc have more facilities than others but this is more likely to be of use in cars or planes rather than for boat use.

Although forward only I have been using JP EnErG pro ESC for a few things incl proj no1 and 2 and the program card for this is so ridiculously eay to use its foolproof

Ashley grannies/eggs and so on
22 May 2015 at 10:40 #57916
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Ashley

What is the difference between a sensorless esc and any other esc? Can you get a program card for any esc as I have another brushless esc that I bought from Hobbyking some time ago but I could not get any info as to what motor I should buy to power a large Hunsman, any info would be welcome.

Regards Bryan
22 May 2015 at 14:50 #57918
ashley needham
Participant
@ashleyneedham69188
Bryan. Some brushless motors are sensored. This is a little device that registers the position of the rotor in regard to the demands being placed on the motor, with regards to throttle, brake and so on. An ESC for a sensored motor would be best in this application.As far as I can see, and I am an expert having spent 3 mins on youtube finding this out, there is no need for a sensored motor on a boat, overkill, and so not needing a sensored ESC.

As to what motor you need this is guesswork at the moment.

You need to know what revs you would like at the prop, and so choose a Kv rating to deliver roughly these revs (baseline….20% below theoretical maximum unloaded revs is reconed to be best efficiency) on the battery voltage you propose to use. THEN you look at the sort of amps the motor is happy with (from the specs) and decide if the watts generated fits into the sort of power bracket that you would like.

SO. if you were to have been reccomended a brushed 700 running on 24V then you can work out the revs and current/power generated and choose a more or less powerfull brushless motor..

OR you can fit something someone else has fitted and says they are happy with and trust that their happiness matches yours !.

You can only see the manufacturers website as to whether a program card is available, or the distributor.

I am not sure there is another way to assist, sorry…..

Ashley

Edited By ashley needham on 22/05/2015 14:54:47
22 May 2015 at 17:13 #57923
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Ashley

I thank you for the explanation as to the difference in the escs . I asked some moons ago if anyone had fitted a brushless motor to a large huntsman but there was no reply. I have fitted a 700 series Johnston brushed motor to my Huntsman and it almost gets up on the plane, on a 7.2 v battery ,I have now fitted a 12 v 8 amp battery to the boat ,I will see how that performs.

I will eventually sort out the brushless problem and fit a brushless to the Sea Commander,watch this space.

PS.do the flyers have all this problem?

Thanks

Bryan
22 May 2015 at 18:10 #57924
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Bryan

Ditch the 12v battery if, as I suspect, it's a sealed lead-acid type. It won't provide anything like the required current and it will take at least half the power of the motor just to push the battery along. SLA batteries are strictly for displacement hulls which have low-current motors and need plenty of ballast. A 3S LiPo or 10-cell NiMH would be much preferable in your Sea Commander.

Is the Huntsman you refer to the 34" or 47" version? We can have a pretty good stab at suggesting a motor and ESC. Flyers have much less of a problem because they outnumber us by about 1000:1. We usually get their dregs.

Dave M
22 May 2015 at 19:45 #57929
mike farrell
Participant
@mikefarrell21522
Hi All I am building a Cat and have the following drive train

2 EnErg 40 amp speed controllers driving 2 Tornado 3235 brushless motors .They seem to balance up well using 2s lipos. .

As supplementary power source I am proposing to use 2 Ducted Fan Jets .

Problem is how do I control the 2 D.F.Jets to work with my brushless motors .

I hope I have not encroached on the wrong Post ,maybe a question for Dave M Michael
22 May 2015 at 23:17 #57933
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Mike

I'm afraid I just don't understand what you mean. Are the Tornado motors driving the props via the 40A ESCs and using the 2S LiPo batteries? If so, what do you mean by "supplementary power sources"? Ducted fan jets (to me) are loads, not power sources. Are you proposing using them as water-powered turbine generators or something?
Give us a clue, please.

Dave M
23 May 2015 at 09:33 #57937
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Dave

The 12v battery is indeed a SLA . My huntsman is a 43 inch version any advice as to a suitable brushless motor is very welcome. I will send away for a 10 cell n
23 May 2015 at 09:45 #57938
BRYAN ASTON
Participant
@bryanaston57723
Dave

The 12v battery is indeed a SLA In My Huntsman it is a 43inch version, any advice s to a suitable brushless motor and esc would be very welcome. I will order a 10 cell NiMH battery for the Sea Commander, at the moment I use two 7.2 v NiMH in para.

Regards

Bryan
23 May 2015 at 10:18 #57940
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Bryan

Try your two packs in series first to see how much it jumps with 14.4v up it!

The prototype Precedent 46" Huntsman 31 had an HP 61 glowplug motor. This was the first model engine to achieve 1 BHP (or so they claimed) and revved at about 15,000 rpm. You need to find a brushless motor which will put out that sort of power (720W+), running an X55 prop. I'd go for a chunky outrunner with a low kv (maybe 700-ish) and using a 6S LiPo pack. Something along these lines **LINK** or this one **LINK** or the C50-20 670kv here **LINK**, together with a Fusion Hawk 60A or 75A ESC and programming card **LINK**

OK – not cheap, but all is quality stuff and a UK supplier isn't likely to ignore requests for after-sales service etc. CMB are one of the best and Component Shop will also go the extra mile to keep their customers happy.
23 May 2015 at 15:30 #57943
mike farrell
Participant
@mikefarrell21522
Hi Dave I am using 2 times EnErg 40 amp speed controllers driving 2 Tornado 3235 Brushless motors .These will be driving 2 times 50mm props .Those will be powered by 2 2s lipo batteries

Mounted above the above drive train I wish to use 2 90mm ducted fan jets (as used in model planes) which will be driven by 2s lipos. Expected thrust will be 480 grams per square inch

My problem is how to control the ducted fan jets in conjunction with normal drive train controls.

Your advice welcomed Michael
23 May 2015 at 15:46 #57944
Dave Milbourn
Participant
@davemilbourn48782
Ah! I see. The motors for the fans will also need a speed controller each. If you want all four motors to turn in the same direction by the same amount at the same time then you should connect all four speed controllers to the single set of pins on the receiver for the throttle channel. If you're having problems with this then I could make you a special one-into-four splitter board on stripboard – let me know via PM.

If you want to use tank-steering i.e. the LH stick controls the LH motors and the RH stick controls the RH motors then you need two Y-leads. One goes into Throttle and the other into Elevator. The LH main and LH fan motors go into the Throttle channel and the RH motors into the Elevator channel. I would strongly recommend a centering spring on both sticks, and you should disable the BEC in all but one of the four speed controllers.

Good luck with whatever it is – with all that power it sounds like you'll have a tiger by the tail.
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