motors? and steering?

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motors? and steering?

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  • #15496
    Modelman
    Participant
      @modelman

      hello a technical question for anyone as you know i will be building the fleetscale bismarck,i intend using 3 electronize motors 543-23 port and starboard motors will be 6volt revs@8300rpm with 40mm 3 blade (p) pitch prop wired in series from a 12volt sla battery,center motor is same type using 12volts and 30mm prop(P)type [email protected] this steer o.k. or should i put middle motor on seperate control,or is there some kind of switching device to aid turning?? i have built in the past a 1/200 scratch bismarck using 2 motors and one rudder behind each prop and this worked ok but i am a little worried because i will be using same size props for 1/128 scale it may be under powered.the real bismarck props were 4700mm diameter divided by 128=36.71mm so 40mm props will be slightly oversize.am i just worrying too much,i would just like to get this right first time please help

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      #15498
      ashley needham
      Participant
        @ashleyneedham69188

        Hi, The centre prop in theory would not affect the steering, being in the middle. If you have two rudders one behind each wing prop then I cant see any problem. Being able to increase rudder area later on is handy sometimes. Scaling props and things to get the right scale size is o.k , but the water viscosity is not scale, neither is the power applied to the model props so i wouldnt go overboard on those sort of calculations myself. If you want to take it that far, one of the problems the original Bismark had (I have read) after it was torpedoed and lost use of the rudder was that it wouln`t steer adequately using assymetric thrust viz port/starbord wing props as they were too close together and pointing directly to the rear,the hull being based on a WW1 design, the Germans obviously not having any interwar major shipbuilding experience….and more importantly there was only one prop either side. This would mean therefore that there should not be much point on a model to dicker with mixed esc prop control. 3 props as you propose should stick a fair amount of power in the water so I should think that you will be ok. At "only" 8300 revs you could put some faster motors in if things are too tame. I always overpower my boats because I like to see them zooming along in an unscale but fun fashion, and it helps to have a bit of speed in hand to catch up with fellow boaters who have wandered off while you were chatting to someone, or for pondside "emergencies" like dogs jumping in the water, a bit of extra power does wonders for the steering, and also emergency reverse. Invaluable for the many moments you have taken your eye off the boat and realise its steaming full ahead for the concrete jetty. Ahem, but I wont mention that !  MY thoughts are you can never have too much power, after all, if its IS grossly overpowered, just dont use so much throttle! Ashley

        #15501
        Penny Lee
        Participant
          @pennylee76979

          Hi MODELMAN,

          There is a thread in the beginners called motors & overheating you should read.

          You want maximum power? You would get maximum thrust from the 543-23 at a smaller current and higher rev count with a smaller prop. I have been there and done that myself. Amotor with highr no load revs usually turns slower than an equivalent once you put a decent prop on it.Don’t confuse a higher power motor with one that turns at high revs without a prop.Don’t wire motors in series

          Don’t use 40mm props because they are too big for that motor (don’t go on the Electronize guide). Look at a source higher up in the supply chain. Search for dc motors ,ungeared in  the rs catalogue where there are data sheets of motors. I would get the model going before you start looking for a switching mechanism.

           Penny Lee

          #15877
          Modelman
          Participant
            @modelman

            http://www.modelboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/images/member_albums/3926/home_aug_103.jpg

            http://www.modelboats.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/sites/5/images/member_albums/3926/home_aug_112_0.jpg

            hello again i used the electronize motors and a 6volt sla battery 36mm brass props from CMB and it works a treat, steers well no (mixer fitted ) also steers well without props turning,quite surprised actually. check this link and see for yourself did a flat out run and motors slightly warm? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDcPCEI3ybA

            #15882
            ashley needham
            Participant
              @ashleyneedham69188

              Modelman. Love the video, as you say seems to go well enough, but it looks very light at the moment (obviously as its not finished) , did you try it ballasted down to full displacement or does the vid clip not give us a true estimation of the freebaord etc etc ?  I agree with the steering well when not under power, all my ships seem to turn on a sixpence when I stop the motors (the ones with several props and only one rudder, that is)  I have a theory thats its something to do with the propellers not turning….hhmmmmm  Ashley

              #15894
              Modelman
              Participant
                @modelman

                hi ashley no it wasnt ballasted still needs bracing before i do that,i did notice a fair amount of flex when handling boat.i was just proving motor/prop combination before i go further.   pete

                #15969
                Mike Davidson
                Participant
                  @mikedavidson22772

                      All this speculation about steering, is making me laugh !            I was doing basic seamanship in the Royal Navy, the instructors kept babbiting on about "steerage way"and other such secrets about ship driving, or even dinghy sailing , If you want to drive a floatey thing round a corner, you have got to be moving. The rudder can only work if water is flowing past it  so, a rudder only works if water is moving past it,therefore, if you have a layout where a propellor is pushing water past a rudder, you can steer the boat even if it ain’t moving, but it will move once the thrust of the propellor overcomes the inertia of the boat’s mass. just imagine that the water thrusts against the rudder which is turned deflecting the water sideways. We all know that any action has an equal and opposite reaction, and in our little scenario above the turned rudder is deflecting the water to port thrusting the boat’s stern to starboard, or in other words, steers it. I think Ashley got there on his own, clever lad. You should see my lifeboat steer, with two prop’s  and a rudder just astern of each one. I beleive the rudder shaft should be cranked to provide a modicum of lift in the opposite side of the turn to induce a little lean into the turn like a motor-cycle

                  To add to your Hmmmmm Ashley, could it be the drag of thestationary props On the other side?

                  Imagine the result if you had the motors going ahead on the port side and astern on the Starboard

                  #15987
                  ashley needham
                  Participant
                    @ashleyneedham69188

                    My theory is that with a twin prop but one central rudder set up, any turning on the props obviously is going to push the hull straight ahead. the rudder will try to turn the hull when it is applied…but if you stop the props then obviously the straight ahead push component is removed and all you get is the turning moment from the rudder and so the boat turns better.  Not that this helps anyone really, the only way for great manoeverability is of course one rudder (or more) behind each prop, or a Kort perhaps.

                    I cheated a bit on my battlecruiser (one rudder two props) by having made the rudder a bit longer than perhaps it should be, and so on near full lock it impinges on prop wash on whatever side it turns to and so provides some steering push by deflection of the appropriate side. If you get my drift –pun intended.  Ashley

                    #4989
                    Modelman
                    Participant
                      @modelman

                      help

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