Todays Boating

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Boating on own today (although Ray turned up on bike).

​Lovely day, no traffic on the roads (despite the flower show at h/ct), car park STILL only 3/4 full at 1100. Very quiet. Pond very clear, no weed.

​Big LCT, project woteva (the last one) and flack lander. All running well.

​Have sort of chosen next project. Victorian warship circa 18-something, masts/sails of course but the novelty will be in the propulsive system (no, not steam I am afraid). Ram bow
​Will be a bit of a challenge, wot with the masts/sails/rigging, all of which will need to be de-mountable for storage and space considerations. I have a few ideas concerning the demountable rigging and making the ratlines, but access may be tricky without having big cutouts in the deck. I may even be cold-moulding some….material….for the bulwarks, which have to have a certain thickness to look right.

​The other concern is a paucity of photographic material on this class of ship (they were not big ones), with the two photos found so far being small and indistinct. The NMM may be able to supply but at a current cost on £70 Plus VAT, this is expensive.

​PROBABLY I will cast around a bit, and if no more detail emerges, use the general shape as per the photos, and detail as per the then "current practice". No one will be able to contradict me in any event (same goes for probably the last 4 projects!!).

​Ashley

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

intriguing!, you don't say which ship of course, but HMS Captain could be ideal in dealing with masts and rigging – you could make the entire main deck a lift off. Mind you, you'd probably have to watch the weather conditions when sailing. You speak of the shortage of pictures. There are quite a few picture libraries on the net now so it might be worth a trawl. Also, has anyone produced a card kit of the ship you want? Paper Shipwright have a few and Marcle Models have some Victorian era warships in their catalogue. Best of luck, I watch with interest.

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Go Steampunk!

miyazakis-steampunk-battleships

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Ian. Info sent.

DG, yes I have seen these things and yes what a wonderful model one of them would make!!

​Ashley

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by ashley needham on 10/07/2017 14:28:52:

Ian. Info sent.

DG, yes I have seen these things and yes what a wonderful model one of them would make!!

​Ashley

Well, we can go some way towards satisfying your curiosity…

**LINK**

**LINK**

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

DG. That second one with the shark…what a hoot!!

I wish I was into Warhammer or something as there are no end of things you could make to go on the water, but….

I am applying the old grey matter to the new project. I shall call them by the first letter of the name from now on so I can keep track of them. This will be project W.

​Firstly I need to buy hardware, the propulsion system, and then several large bits of MDF (don't worry, these will not be present in the finished article. I am going to have a bash at making a fibreglass mould I think. Not done so before,
​Its either MDF as a master or perhaps plaster covered blocks?? The plaster may be better in terms of releasing for the mould?? Any thoughts anyone? Can I use Styrofoam as a mould if it is covered in fine cloth/z-poxy?? It will only be a half hull mould.

​Ashley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Some confusion, or at least non-clarity over several aspects of the hull.

The NMM does not list my ship, e-mail sent, and have also e-mailed science museum to ask about the half-hull model.

​The half model, presumably a builders model, does not show the main feature I want clarity on. Often they were to look pretty and show the lines of the hull only. If the NMN has no info, a lot of it is going to be best guess, and quipping, deck layout and so forth will simply have to be "period" rather than dead accurate (not that I am building a super detailed boat anyway)

​Hopefully the propulsion system will arrive tomorrow and I will stick it on a gash hull, flip an "on" switch nd see how it shoves..

Off to Wickes for MDF for plug, and some plumbing fittings.

​Ashley

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Second thoughts about MDF and its ability to carve. Also other costs escalating…. I am no leaning towards the foam core, glass on the outside, cut away the middle method..

​Propulsion units arrived to day. Tested one in a bowl in the sink. Wont try that again. How to empty a bowl of water in 5 seconds…. BUT bodes well for a bit of push.

​NMM has replied with one picture (318) and is still looking.

I could do with talking to a Victorian ship expert on a number of matters principally likely deck layout and gun disposition. None of the pictures is clear regarding guns on main deck or in the gun deck.

​Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Probably some expertise on here but if you keep it secret we can't help!

Never wanted to make a one off GRP hull myself – I prefer conventional construction – a lot less effort for a one off hull.

PM me if you like and I will see if I can help.

Colin

[harry smith 1Participant @harrysmith1]

Hi Colin

Some secret's are best keep off the forum, but, PM's between forum buddies is secret squirrel stuff!!!!!

To all my secret squirrel buddies, THANK YOU !!!!

Mum's the word !!!

Harry

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Harry, , what would we do without PM`s eh!!

​PM sent to Colin, He is right, If I keep it secret how can I get help, but I would like to keep the actual vessel under public wraps for now although the information is not SECRET SECRET and anyone interested can PM me.

​It is Victorian, a small armoured ship with masts, but one of the uncommon ones (of which there are loads)…the sort of smaller vessels overlooked in collections overshadowed by the Warrior, Bellerophon, Defence, Achilles and so on (names you are all familiar with)(?). Unless the NMM has a deck plan, the actual deck layout will never be known due to the high bulwarks hiding this sort of detail. HOWEVER, the layout would likely be the same as per other armoured ships of the period (1860-1880).

​The hull… I am no shipbuilder and for a start am not likely to get any sort of lines plan for this. I have a method to use however and this would suit the fibreglass route. As for the rest, I will plod on after I have a hull!

Ashley

[Malcolm FraryParticipant @malcolmfrary95515]

Posted by Colin Bishop, Website Editor on 14/07/2017 21:37:46:

Probably some expertise on here but if you keep it secret we can't help!

Never wanted to make a one off GRP hull myself – I prefer conventional construction – a lot less effort for a one off hull.

PM me if you like and I will see if I can help.

Colin

Depends on the hull and the skills or otherwise of the builder and the method used. Agreed that a full on plug, female mould, and hull created by lining the mould type is way too much work, but a cheaply and simply made male plug sized to allow for eventual hull thickness, which then gets the actual hull built over it really is a very simple way to go for a one-off.

In the past, there have been comments along the lines of "But you can't get the same finish", which, when you think about it, are simply tosh. When laying the resin and whatever over the one off plug, the finish is as good as the builder chooses it to be. If it s a complex shape of hull, like something with a lot of tumblehome, the plug is best made from something soft and disposable like foam, covered with plaster to keep the resin away from the foam. The advantage is that it only needs finishing to a standard that will be satisfactory for the (probably unseen) inside.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Malcolm. Thanks for that. The more I look into it the more there is out there in the way of materials and methods. You Tube wasn't very helpful, but a composites suppliers "how-to" vids were really good.

​I think something over £100 for a hull, finished (no deck or bulkheads).
​PVA release goo, epoxy resin, hardener, matt, disposable brushes, pots, foam

Ashley

[Ian JopsonParticipant @ianjopson21383]

Just a thought on your secret project. I assume you have checked the relevant volume of 'Conways', but is there anything in the appropriate volume (I think vol 7 covers the era) of Clowes 'History of the Royal Navy? There is a profile drawing in 'The Metal Fighting Ship in the Royal Navy' by E.H.H.Archibold, published in 1971 by Blandford. I wasn't looking specifically, just browsing for something on my little project. Would looking under the names of other ships in the class be any use? i.e. different pictures, etc.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Ian. I do not have a "Conway's" to peruse unfortunately. Just had a wade through Clowes (as they have been scanned and can be viewed) but didn't see anything. Will have another trawl through later.

​Metal fighting ships is available second hand for very little so will purchase.

​The others of the class only had a differently shaped stern, but in other respects would be the same and I am following this route as well.

Thanks for that.

​Ashely

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

The NMM have a set of plans for my vessel or at least a selection from….

SHEER, PROFILE, SAIL, UPPER DECK, LOWER DECK, HOLD, HOLD SECTION….for various years

They are £70 excluding vat, £50 for second onwards. One plan is therefore about £85.

​What to do?? what ones… I reckon I need about 200 quid's worth….. or not??? Not sure I want to spend that much…a good likeness will do me? or splash out on profile and upper deck, as these are what matters?

Ashley.

​

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Just an addition, I bought years ago a side profile for the Agincourt (the 1800`s one not the ww1 one) and paid a chunk…but the copy was about 7 feet long and 3 feet deep. Serious stuff. The detail on it was stupendous.

HOWEVER..there is almost TOO much detail. If I were to be spending 10 years building the ultimate Agincourt, these plans are fantastic, but if you just want model to sail on the pond, and look reasonable, then,,.,,,

​I also know from looking at these plans is that a lot of the detail is obscure in the fact that you need several plans to interpret it all. I know that for instance a profile plan for the @@@@8@8'76677 would indeed show the hull sides well, but for instance the actual height or position of the main deck may not be shown, something fairly important to a model. It depends on what's in the drawing, and you don't know this until you unwrap it from the tube. A profile, upper deck and sheer would be needed at a minimum, over £200 worth

​I don't know if it is possible to inspect the drawings? This would be great as it would clear up a lot of questions.

Several scanned photos are available which would have a good resolution for detail, and a side profile drawing.

I am sorry if I sound a bit tight, but…..

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Ashley

I guess they have to cover the printing costs for paper copies, do they offer a cheaper digital copy in pdf format ? I have a AO printer next to me in the office

Regards Ray

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Hi Ray. I think its all or nothing. when you see the detail you can see why the copies are full size.

​I am, not saying they are expensive for what they are. The detail is stupendous and of course accurate. For the size you get, and the fact that someone has to dig them out, scan them, print and send (and that in order to save these for prosperity and so on with government cuts) in fact they are very reasonable. Just printing this size alone would probably cost you in excess of 20-30 quid in a printers shop

​However if I were to buy a plan from a well known and heavily advertised plans service, what I would actually want may cost £20 or so. Yes, they are inadequate compared to the naval architects drawings but all you actually want is contained therein.

Ashley

 

Edited By ashley needham on 18/07/2017 10:15:18

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Ashley

Yes I recently bought a set of Harold Underhill drawings for a 74 gun ship of the line, 10 sheets so much information it blew my mind slightly but one day I'll have a go after the next 5 projects are complete.

On recent visit the NMM at Greenwich I asked where the second world warships were ? and could only find a 15' long battleship in the entrance HMS George V all the other 3,000 models are in store at Chatham such a shame !! the exhibition's are now themed to specific event such as Jutland.

Regards Ray

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

All this information should be available for free on the Web. It doesn't make sense to keep it locked up and only to release it at ever-increasing expense to an ever-diminishing band of interested parties. Particularly since we as taxpayers own it already.

If this approach continues, the costs of maintaining it manually will get higher and higher, the advantage to be gained will become negative, and eventually a bean-counter could even junk all the data in order to maintain funding the next time there are cuts. And another bit of history will be lost…

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

I have asked the NMM if it is possible to view the plans or speak to the curatorial staff about them….if you don't ask etc.

​Having now trawled a million pages on google and viewed a hundred websites, I am in possession of several useful drawings/images, but still need a few important details clearing up.

​Two books are on their way as well.

​DG. Certainly this should be the case. It would in any event make sense to digitise the collection if possible for security, and also to allow cheapskates like myself ​ persons who want SOME detail, but not the full monty, to get smaller copies. Most of their drawings were to scale, and they should be able to send prints or pdf`s (whatever) at the scale you want…so much easier for a model maker. Some of the full-size plans were in 1/48, which is what I will be building to.

Ashley

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by ashley needham on 20/07/2017 09:15:37:

…..

​DG. Certainly this should be the case. It would in any event make sense to digitise the collection if possible for security…..

From the point of view of protecting the collection against loss, making it easily available and lowering the cost of access and use, it's a no-brainer. The one thing preventing this is copyright legislation, driven primarily by the entertainment industry, who want ALL information to belong to someone, to attract a charge for use, and to be policed by the state as if obtaining 'someone else's information' without paying for it was theft…

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Success!! I have just had a mail from Freya at the NMM to say that yes it is possible to view the plans!!!! wowza!. Docklands light railway and notebook here we come (don't suppose I would be allowed to take photos!!

Ashley

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Use Google Glass….

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