Machine Tools

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi All

Apart from the more obvious use of band and jig saws etc, I was just wondering what machine tools modellers find most useful.

I have in mind, especially, lathes and mill drills. There is a space on the end of my bench approx. 4 feet long and a spare corner space which could be used for a free-standing mill.

Any advice on suitable sources and experience of 'new' versus 'used' welcome…

Regards,

Dave

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Discussion of use and sourcing

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Dave

I've found that a pillar drill press has been invaluable. Mine is a cheapo Machine Mart 5-speed one but it does the job very well. While it's nice to have more elaborate and exotic toys in the workshop I reckon you must balance the benefits of a shiny new and expensive toy against the cost and likely use you'll get from it.

Dave M

[Roger ClarkParticipant @rogerclark]

Hi Dave C,

Difficult to advise unless you can give an idea of what you want to create with your proposed new tools.

Firstly I would say go for new unless you have a competent engineer with you to look at and test used equipment. Decide on what you want to build, marine steam engines, locos, traction engines et al, that will then give you the size of machinery required. Don't buy off Ebay unless you can go and check/test the machine or have money to burn.

Set yourself a budget for your machine purchase and allow about 50% extra for buying the tools and extra bits required, milling bits, lathe cutting tools, measuring tools & gauges, consumables (oil and metal).

Myself, I have a chinese mini lathe and mini mill, they both have been good for my needs most of the time but I have been pushed to do the odd jobs on them, but I do have a circa 1937 Denham Junior lathe weighing 3/4 ton which will turn 15" dia stuff and access to a Bridgeport mill as well.

If you look to buy new then Chester machine tools, Warco or Arc Eurotrade both seem to have good reputations (amongst others). Eurotrade would be my first preference as all my transactions with them have been first rate with good honest advice (no backhanders here) .

Regards

Roger

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Thanks for the response both.

I have a sort of make-shift drill press at present but it's based on a 1950's Wolf Cub (single speed) 2400 rpm ! A bench grinder (2 wheels) is in almost constant use. A good vise rounds off the current crop apart from the usual hand tools.

For usage, the largest item at present is a suspension assembly for a racing sportscar. Max. diameter here will be around 45mm – materials: T45 tube, EN14 bar and 300M bar.

I also have plans for a model 4-stroke engine around 10cc. Hence smallest item probably the pushrods 14 gauge silver steel perhaps. Oh, and lots of boat plans – mainly, sailing next.

Yes, I think my preference will be to save for a new set-up as second-hand can be tricky as you say…

Dave C

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I agree with Dave M that a drill press is a very versatile piece of equipment, not only is it great for precise drilling but it can also be used as a basic vertical lathe or milling machine and a router.

You will need a drill clamp

But this one will allow your drill to be a milling machine or router.

I also found that the Dremel drill press is a very handy (smaller) version of the larger bench mounted machine.

Paul

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

My background is in the mechanical engineering workshop field. Consequently (apart from model boats) I involve myself in mechanical items and spent a considerable time supporting my son who scratch built as Lotus 7 lookalike. So machinery wise I have a pedestal drill (Axminster) combined lathe/milling machine (Chester) and a mini milling machine (Arc Eurotrade). Regarding accuracy, reliability etc, I am very pleased with all of them especially for the price paid. There was an earlier comment about Arc Eurotrade which I fully support. A very good supplier to deal with and the way the mini mill was presented was absolutely superb. If you have a Lidl supermarket near to you have a look at their Parkside range of larger tools. A friend of mine purchased one of their bench drills which I tried out and I found it very good value. Their Powerfix range of smaller hand tools are also superb value …£10 for a 6 inch – 150 mm digital caliper……very good indeed.

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

I would go with all the advice given, if buying a cheaper new machine on the face of it a bargain, but you quickly find how many extras you need to make it work ! 4 jaw chucks being a good example , and quick change tool posts etc.

Being slightly mercenary, being a member of an Engineering society with the large numbers of members going to the workshop in the sky, lots of complete workshops are available these days! I have first hand experience of clearing both my dad & uncle's workshops, i'm sure at the end of the day a lot of equipment goes in the skip unfortunately 😢

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Some very interesting comments and ideas so far – thanks all.

Size-wise, I seem to be falling somewhere between the 'mini' range and the big stuff (quite often 3-phase though)…I'd like to stay 240 volt /single-phase if possible.

We now have a Lidl near us so, will keep a watch out for anything that looks good. The dual-axis (x / y), drill press theme is one that seems worth pursuing.

I'll keep watching, listening and looking for the time being.

Dave

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

A quick update :

I've taken the plunge and ordered a 'X-Y' machine /bench vice. This is not a high-quality unit (the reviews are very variable), but, it will enable a bit more engineering learning.

There are trapezoidal threads which will probably need some cleaning up with a file – maybe even supporting via a SIF bronze bush or two.

My low-tech "Wolf Cub" based drill press has a worn front bearing and about 0.5-1mm of side play. So, I'll search the net for a replacement bearing asap.

Also purchased a set of titanium drill bits in 0.5mm steps with a set of adjustable reamers to come (73rd birthday today !).

No lathe as yet, but I think I've now got a better handle on size and built-in facilities etc. Cost new will be about £1,500 (ish) so, a bit more saving up yet.

Dave

[Chris EParticipant @chrise]

Something that seems to be often forgotten is space. I have tools that never see the light of day because I don't have the space to keep them ready to use and for many jobs it just isn't worth getting them out.

Before deciding on any tools have a workshop plan.

[Richard SimpsonParticipant @richardsimpson88330]

Many years ago I had a good look at all the lathes on offer at the Harrogate Model engineering show. There were around five 12 x 7 mini lathes on offer, not surprisingly, all were of identical castings and varied only in the paint and the level of accessories. Nowadays the norm tends to be a 14 x 7, but again, they are all the same basic castings. Decide on what level of accessories you need so you avoid buying anything unnecessary. i.e. do you need digital readouts and do you need digital speed displays?

I find my lathe absolutely invaluable for a huge range of requirements and could not live without it.

When it comes to milling machines again decide what level of add-ons you need and look for something that matches your requirement. Just remember that a milling machine can be used as a pedestal drill but a pedestal drill will struggle if used as a milling machine. In fact I would recommend that you don't.

If I only had the space for one machine it would be a mini lathe. Mine are from Chester but, the first thing you do with them is strip them down to give the gearbox a good cleaning and greasing, I also replaced the bearings, and clean all the ways, gears, bearings, gibs and slides, oil them and refit carefully. It should be more than capable for hobby use then.

Make sure the area is very well lit, do not use a single flourescent fitting, and make sure you have good clear access around the machine.  You need to be able to stand or sit comfortably in front of the machine and access all controls.  I strongly recommend that you do not by-pass any safety interlock, despite being tempted and do not bother with cooling systems unless you are really into production machining.  They can be more trouble than they are worth. 

Edited By Richard Simpson on 03/09/2020 12:41:21

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

It really comes down to what your going to make with it, If it's nice to have handy bit of kit do you really need it ? I bought my Myford to build 3 1/2" & 5" gauge steam locos, but as Richard has said as soon as you buy a lathe you will realise you need a vertical mill !!

I bought this vertical drill for £80 30 years ago, and the similar machine for Aldi or Lidl is still still £80 sounds the same as Dave M bought from Machine Mart.

Do your self a favour throw the Wolf Cub away it must be 65 years old ??

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Lots of good advice again guys – thanks.

OK – sentimental admission time : I recently lost a very old screwdriver at one of our R/C slope flying sites. It wasn't even particularly good, but, it was my favourite !

Also, the Wolf Cub was my Dad's (I haven't seen him since I was 21, but that's another story). It's been professionally re-wired and checked for safety etc and runs well. I have several other makes as well, but, the main thing is that it has a round, parallel collar which enables a secure clamp to the drill press. All my other drills have weird tapers, lumps and bumps and things in the way…

My wife says I much prefer my old clothes to new ones – I think tools must be like this too ?

[Roger ClarkParticipant @rogerclark]

Dave,

if the Wolf Cub works for you, keep it! I also have a pillar drill that my father restored in the early '70s, it must be older than me but it weighs a 'ton' and never lets me down.

For the type of modelling we do (unless you plan to build locos or traction engines) a mini lathe and mini mill can be bought for £1500 along with a reasonable assortment of tools and cutters, the only proviso I would put on that is make sure the motors are brushless and the mill is belt driven, not gears, they can strip in a jam as they are plastic.

Regards

Roger

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Well the 'X-Y' vice arrived this week and it looks very similar to the second photo from Paul T.

It was a budget model and needs a bit of work. The threads and ways are fine but some of the castings will need a clean up around the edges. Also, there is some play in the thread registers /receivers and these will probably need a spring or maybe a bushing or two to remove.

All-in-all, not bad value for the money and 1,000% better than what I've got now ! No doubt it will further my engineering a little…

Dave

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

Dave – Regarding the "play" that you have found. Please note that all devices that rely upon a screw and nut system to provide movement will have a degree of play otherwise movement would be impossible i.e. like a fully tighten nut and bolt. The free-black experienced when changing direction just needs to be taken into account.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Above photos show a trial set-up of the new X-Y Table with the venerable Wolf Cub.

The jury's still out on accuracy ! First test was to rout a block of medium balsa. – this went well with the grain but needed a little clean-up with an X-Acto chisel across the grain. Certainly good for bulk removal of material though using a ball-ended Dremel cutter.

Next tests will be in metal. Probably one milling job followed by a vertical turning in brass I expect.

I think it should be alright for small boat parts. Cost so far under £100…

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Hi Dave

Be careful with metal. An entirely different prospect from wood. That is not a very rigid set up and you need to watch the cutting tool does not grab in the metal. You also need to be careful that any vibration from the tool does not loosen the chuck. Proper mills hold the tools in collets.

In fact be careful with all materials.

Tim R

[Ray Wood 3Participant @raywood3]

Hi Dave,

The poor old Wolf Cub, you maybe reported for cruelty. I admire your optimism though 😢,

A milling head bearing is different.

Regards Ray

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Hi Tim and Ray

Thanks for the warnings and comments. I should reiterate that the present set-up is just to see me through until I can find a lathe and a proper mill…

Some light grinding this afternoon on a piece of brass allowed working to about 5 thou" (hard to be exact without a DTI or digital calipers) – this with a rotary grinding wheel and brass work piece in the X-Y table.

There was some tool chatter, and so, I stop and check the chuck at regular intervals. Also, I let the Cub cool down in between runs, so, no need to report me to the RSPCA just yet Ray !

Incidentally, my local 'CNC' machine shop (who can work to 6 microns, so they say) charges £65 /hour. So, you don't actually have to do all that many hours to clock up the price of a good lathe.

Dave

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Some parts I need to machine :-

1. T45 tube 60.3mm with the i/d turned to about 52mm

2. EN14 bar 55mm with the o/d an interference fit in 1. above and bored to take deep-groove bearings with tolerance 0 to -0.01mm

3. 300M bar – diamond (or similar) tipped tooling required ?

Hardly model boat stuff but relevant for lathe /chuck sizes that I need to buy soon. The lathe will also be used for model boat /engineering as well. Any guidance on chucks, faceplates, mandrels etc will be helpful…

Ray, (and other engineers) are you there ?

Dave

[David Marks 2Participant @davidmarks2]

Regarding the tube, what is the critical dimension, the outside or inside diameter? I used to turn copper tube for a bloke that made hot air engines which requires the tube to have a thin wall thickness. The way around that one was to find a tube with the correct i/d and after mounting on a mandrel turn down the o/d to the correct size. It also overcame the problem that you find with most tube i.e. the i/d and o/d are not concentric.

[Dave Cooper 6Participant @davecooper6]

Thanks for the reply David.

For the T45 tube, the 'critical' dimension is the i/d. It's actually 5mm wall as supplied from the stockholders. Inside this will be the EN14 (for the bearing registers), so I have a bit of wiggle room there.

The question is really relating to the capability of the mini-lathe type chuck's capacity. I have a feeling I will have to buy the next size up of lathe though to be able to machine this lot. Ideally, I'd like to stay with a bench-size model as workshop space is tight..

Good point about the tube o/d and i/d not being concentric – I hadn't thought of that ! Currently, I'm leaning toward the "Warco" range (on the recommendation of a friend), so will try to get some info' on mandrels etc. from their tech support desk.

Regards,

Dave

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