Loss of Practical Skills

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Saw this in the Daily Mail yesterday – how very true. I am not suggesting anyone here is suffering from this malady, but it does seem to be very widespread.

I suppose they could not bring Meccano back now because it is too dangerous for 21st century schoolchildren! Can't remember how many times I stabbed my finger with my Meccano screwdriver in the 50s, but it taught me to be more careful and I can't remember when I last did it

Bob

**LINK**

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

OH&S has a lot to answer for, Bob.

It's easy to generalise, and I have little doubt that the gentleman is right in his assertions but, speaking from my own experience, there are still some youngsters who like to build. My 3 Sydney grandsons, ages 13, 10 and 8 are always building things with Lego, and I suppose that the more complicated Lego is the modern day equivalent of Meccano. It teaches manual dexterity and encourages imagination. Perhaps these boys are in the minority. They are also extremely computer literate, as are most modern youngsters, with their father (our middle son) being a Senior Solutions Architect – whatever that means, he works for Wallenius Wilhelmsen in IT – and their mother in IT marketing.

I do agree, however, that the computer age is having a very negative effect on manual creative skills.

Peter.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

When the earliest personal computers such as the Sinclair Spectrum came out in the early 1980s they encouraged programming skills and creativeness as you had to be able to be very cunning indeed to get your programs to work in the tiny amounts of memory that were available by todays's standards. I ended up building around a third of my career on the basis of the techniques I learned then. You also needed to know just how the software and hardware interacted and in my case I was responsible for physically installing the first Local Area Network in my employer's organisation. An accounting and property information program I started writing back in 1987 is still in use today for reference purposes!

Of course things became more complex to the extent that these days most techies only have a grasp of part of the overall picture and have to take the rest on trust using tools provided for them by other specialist techies.

One of the big differences these days is that most kids play games that have been devised by others and the most they can achieve is perhaps high scores and hand/eye co ordination whereas in those days the ambition was to actually create and write the games ourselves.

I suppose it is a bit like the difference between scratch and kit building!

Colin

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

OOOh Colin…the difference between scratch building and kit building !!! what a statement to get the goat and wrath the ire (or something) of the avid , er, internet based forum members.

Ashley ( thinks space invaders is far too complicated to even think about playing.)

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I wholeheartedly agree with Bob (and Trevor Baylis) as I have seen at first hand the changes in skill levels of tradesmen on building sites and the increasing lack of true craftsmen. Younger generation bricklayers and joiners, through no fault of their own, are sent into the working environment when only capable of carrying out basic work and usually have to be placed with older workers to be taught the finer details of their craft.

Where apprenticeships used to take 5 to 6 years and a typical apprentice spent the first twelve months just learning the basics now modern training courses last for 6 months after which the graduates are pushed into the world only just able to hold their tools correctly.

I was involved in reconstructing listed buildings in Liverpool and had a very difficult time filtering out decent craftsmen who could carry out detailed construction work and every one of these men were over 50 years old.

I can understand what Colin meant about the difference between scratch build and kit build as an inability for people to think for themselves simply because they have been taught to follow instructions developed by someone else i.e. computer games.

The worry is just how many practical skills are going to be lost forever as the current older generation dies off, this is now becoming very evident in the construction industry and I can foresee a time when building design and construction will be limited to basic shapes simply because of the inability of the workforce to carry out the designers intent.

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I have nothing whatsoever against kits and indeed all my recent boats have been of this type. I think they are an ideal way of entering the hobby. However, when you buy a kit, the design work has been done, the components identified and marked or cut out where necessary, fittings are usually provided in complete or mini kit form and the whole package should come with comprehensive constructional and operating instructions

If scratchbuilding than you will probably just have a set of non specialised drawings (or not in Ashley's case!) and must work out everything for yourself. This will also require a basic knowledge of materials and the laws of physics if you are aiming for a working model. Clearly there is a lot more involved as Paul acknowledges above.

It is not just the loss of skills which concerns me but the fact that, on the evidence of the queries you see on the model boating forums, many people seem to have only the sketchiest understanding of basic physics with little idea of the effects of scaling, the workings of simple electrical circuits (fusing for example) and the basic principles of stability – all of which are essential to the construction of a successful model.

We do need to distinguish between those skills which are being lost as there is no longer any call for them such as ship riveting, and those which continue to have relevance along with new ones that are still being developed and this is of course where an understanding of basic engineering principles continues to be vital. Materials and techniques may change but the essential principles applicable to, for example, the construction of a bridge remain the same.

The educational establishment has recently belatedly acknowledged the need to teach pupils programming skills rather than just how to operate spreadsheets or word processors and more needs to be done along these lines if the rot is to be stopped.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

I have also noticed the increasing number of design related questions that are popping up on the forums and I agree that a worryingly large number of model boat hobbyists lack some or all of the fundamental basics required to scratch build.

Changing the education system will eventually help future generations but what of the current crop of young to middle age model builder who struggle to do anything more than blindly follow someone else's designs without fully understanding what they are building.

Perhaps it would help if a small section of the magazine could be given over to a series explaining the basics of design, some kind of duffers guide that showed how and why model boats work and encouraging readers to attempt their own designs.

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

To some extent this is already done when the opportunity offers such as in the recent Winter Special which featured pieces on materials used in boat modelling which proved to be very popular and will be supplemented in the future with similar material. Glynn Guest's Mooring Post articles also frequently deal with modelling basics and principles while i have also included a number of practical items in the Annual Special issues I have edited including items on stability, scaling effects and the like. So it does happen – but of course not everybody reads them!

If you are offering then maybe Paul Freshney would be willing to provide space for something on a bit more regular basis depending on what you had in mind.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

I have thought that a short series along the lines of the one that Dave Wiggins has penned that would explain the basic principals of model boat design in a way that non technical people could understand.

By working through three models of increasing complexity the reader would gain an entrance level knowledge of geometry and drawing skills, material science and the principals of construction. Non technical text, simple technical drawings and photos of the build would link everything together.

Starting with the simple shapes of a landing craft the reader would gain the confidence to go onto the next design of a typical modern frigate and then finally the complexities of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carrier.

The three models all have common themes of design and construction and as such the lessons learnt on one can be carried forward to the next.

The readers would learn the basics of model boat design and construction and hopefully be able to move on and design their own models, but if they wanted to build one of the featured models they would be able to purchase the plans from My Hobby Store.

It could be an interesting and informative feature in the magazine that has the added bonus of potential income for the publishers.

Paul

I should add the caveat that whilst I think this is a good idea it does not form the basis of an offer to undertake the work especially as Paul already has access to established contributors who are more able to produce better editorial

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Just as an idea and musing on such with the pond members, I thought that someone interested in making a boat but with no or little skill, could be shown (for instance) around my small landing craft (cant get a simpler build than a shoe box!)…details would be pointed out…propshaft alignment and the reasons for this..surface contact areas for glueing and filler bits to stiffen joints up…the rudder servo and how it worked and what hole it was plugged into the reciever and so on.

THEN, the prospective builder would be given sufficient wood, perhaps cut roughly to size, and bits neccessary for the build, and told to get on with it (no plan, or perhaps just a brief sketch)

They might c##k it up, or they might make a good effort on it, but, by `eck, wouldnt they learn the basics!!! In fact, making a total mess of it might actually learn them more than getting it right first time…

Ashley

[Andy HustlerParticipant @andyhustler32076]

Colin as my dad was a Cheif Petty Oficer , m.e., RN . i have been bought up on building things and yes ok they have not always gone right but dad always encoraged me to keep .So i progressed from Airfix and Tamiya on to big and better from my first model boat kit a Scalecraft minesweeper , all plastic snap together with a small motor and a ruder you could fix at any direction as memory serves they also done an air sea rescue boat , these were fantastic pocket money models ,any one rember these ??? must have been the early 70's

Andy from Cardiff

[John ShireParticipant @johnshire55937]

I think that Paul's suggestion is a great idea and if it came to a vote I would nominate Paul to do the work.

Some of you will know that Paul has been doing some design work for me and I have found his drawings and simple explanations easy to understand.

I appreciate that my views are biassed and I wondered what Colin and the other senior members of the forum think?

John

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

.There are a number of really interesting thoughts being floated but the long and the short of the discussion is most modellers entering the hobby are of a more mature age and as such leaning a new skill from scratch is not uppermost in their minds, getting a model onto the water is. As for information there is so much out there that there simply is no excuse. The Model Boats magazine has been running many such easy build articles for years and there are a plethora of boat modelling related books that are easily available that provide a step by step description of how to get started through to the more complex forms of construction and methods applicable to our hobby. In the days of the Model Maker magazine forerunner to the Model Boats there was actually very little by today’s standards. But thanks to such publications as "Boat Modelling" by Vic Smeed which was a true beginner’s hand book with chapters relating to design and how to interpret drawing through to the use of basic tools. And yes these forms of how to publications are still being published but with a much more modern slant. So there is no excuse, it’s all there all any would be boat builder has to do is pop along to their central library and ask or get in touch with their nearest model boat club . Or they could just purchase Model Boats and its two informative specials for a cracking good informative read .

Dave Wooley

Edited By David Wooley on 31/12/2012 12:05:13

[Tony HadleyParticipant @tonyhadley]

The ideas posted on this thread are all to enter a beginner to model making by omiting the first stage —- plastics, Airfix, Revell etc. Most model builders started by building these kits and then progressing to balsa etc. Very few tools needed to start and an acceptable model is built in a relatively short time. Plastics never feature in the magazine (other than Dave Abbott's superb plastic magic conversions), there is no slot for them on the forum, other than with statics like Bob Wilson's fabulous miniatures. Even the specialist magazines (like Airfix) are more geared to a 'top notch' builder illustrating a conversion (mainly aircraft), rather than advising a beginner.

Just my thoughts, Tony.

 

Edited By Tony Hadley on 31/12/2012 14:51:36

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

When I first opened this thread, I did not especifically mean with regards to ship or boat modelling, but to EVERYTHING practical! In the long run, it doesn't really matter much if modelmaking skills die out. But it matters quite a lot if professional practical skills such as mechanical construction and repairs, shipbuilding, plumbing, electrical repairs, building and maintenance etc etc. die out. It seems that hardly any common items are made here anymore and if they are, they are very expensive! Lots of young people haven't a clue which way to turn a nut to undo it or wire a mains plug etc etc.

Bob

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Bob I really don't share your view of the near extinction of our skill base. Yes it is true that everyday items like the manufacturing of domestic appliances have shifted to other parts of the world but there remains plenty to keep UK Inc productively occupied. The young as we were once need direction and encouragement and they will respond. There are many cutting edge industries where a younger generation are the trail blazers. Tools and techniques have changed since I first started and they will change again. Why lean how to use a flint edge cutting tool when a lazar is better. I had no idea how to solder or work with a lathe till I was shown. On a model making note I see every year at Telford “Model World” many younger people attending eager to learn and participate. I have also seen the results of their work and it is inspirational as good if not better than I have seen in Germany for the same age groups and skill levels . I am not at all complaisant but neither am I despondent about the future.

Dave Wooley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob

Surprisingly a lot of people in their 30s and early 40s haven't got a clue about undoing nuts or wiring a plug.

The skills shortage in the construction industry was critical just before our current depression and will be even worse when we eventually get back to work.

Paul

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

I am very despondent about the future, although it will not affect me. I am quite sure things will be OK for another 20 years or so, maybe a bit longer – but after that – who knows?

I am eternally grateful that I was born in early 1944.

When I continually see this "We are all living longer" I really wonder if I am the only one on the planet that has realised that anyone who had reached 100 years of age was born in 1912 or earlier, before all these modern pollutants became the norm. The smoke has gone, but toxic chemicals in food – pesticides – drugs – genetic enginering etc are getting worse.

i.e. Mercury is a deadly poison and not to be tolerated in any quantity at all (For goodeness sake, we used to have dishes of the stuff at school and poke our fingers in it!)

Nevertheless, I do agree that it is toxic. So why are they forcing energy-saving bulbs (with mercury content) on us (that are as dim as their inventors) and continuing with amalgam fillings in teeth and putting it as preservatives in medicines and vaccinations?

Flexirules – that is why! It is OK when it suits them, but not otherwise!

I am all for progress and am fully computer-literate and use machine tools and all sorts of electronic gadgets. But I do feel that an awful lot is being lost.

——-

Well-known British Shipyard, 1977.

Me to ship manager: "Why are you fitting us with a square funnel?"

Ship Manager: We haven't the skill or equipment to make round ones any more!

Ugghh!

Bob

Edited By Bob Wilson on 31/12/2012 19:24:11

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I remember going on a 'management' course some 25 years ago and those present were absolutely amazed that I could change a plug so perhaps there is nothing new!

I also used to service my own car but that is no longer possible for an amateur these days with the computerised control systems that run all modern vehicles.

However, I do think that it is vital for today's youngsters to be offered opportunities in engineering training and courses as opposed to 'soft' options such as Media Studies. When I take my car into a garage, I want it to be serviced by somebody who knows what they are doing even if they are armed with all the latest computer based tools. Threre is little to beat some basic engineering knowledge, aided by practical common sense when it comes to resolving a problem.

There was a report in one of the Sunday papers yesterday where a motorist had all his lights, except the headlighst go out at once. Slamming the boot lid brought them all back on again. The garage's solution was to replace all the bulbs at £80!!!! The real problem was a duff contact!

Colin

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

. Bob the past is the past but it was not in any way a better past. I was born in 1945 and I for one do not see the past as some sort of lost promised land .It was what it was and yes the future will be uncertain .I can never remember a time when it wasn't but my grandchildren have infinitely better opportunities than I ever had and that is as it should be. Colin as for cars I was one of scores of my generation that had their heads under bonnets, generally tinkering and often making things worse but it was fun .Cars are different now but they are much more reliable than any car I owned back then .I can do a round trip to my daughters of over 600miles without even thinking about its reliability. Yes the past is the past and that’s where it will remain but the future now that will happen regardless.

Dave Wooley

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

True enough, but given the choice of what era to be born in again, 2012 would come pretty low in my preferences. I think 1944 was not bad, but I would have preferred 1937, just after my parents got married. That way, I would have spent longer working in my preferred era, when sea-life was not plagued by the ever-increasing technology that often did not work properly!

2012 is fine for me, because I don't have to work any more unless I want to – but I can see that it is pretty abysmal for most schoolchildren, even though they may not think so!

Bob

Edited By Bob Wilson on 31/12/2012 20:27:35

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

1937 was a good year Bob, it's when I was born

Peter.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

I was born in 1959 and my generation was almost the last to be taught imperial measurement, the last to be taught technical drawing, woodwork and metalwork. We gained practical experience of the real world by working with sharp tools, high speed lathes and welding equipment without the health & safety worries or cost constraints that plague todays society. We all left school with practical skills that would be useful in later life and no matter whether we became tradesmen, intellectuals or labourers these abilities helped us through our everyday lives.

When my son went to high school (only 20 years after I did) he sat through 3 double period lessons being taught how to wire a plug, that equates to nearly 5 hours spent on teaching a person how to connect 3 wires….what a waste of time. The nearest he got to practical work was making a small toy whale out of a bit of wood using a fret saw and sandpaper, something that my generation did at junior school.

It seems that schools today are just factories devoted to churning out candidates for universities and those that fail are lost before they even start their adult lives, I do worry for my grandson who has just started primary school as I suspect that by the time he reaches high school the nearest he will get to any kind of practical experience will be pressing buttons on a keyboard.

All of this begs the question: Am I the last of the dinosaurs or am I the last of a golden age of practical people? I imagine the answer depends upon your viewpoint and how old you are but I believe that we in the UK are in real danger of loosing the very thing that makes us who we are as I can't foresee computer programmers or accountants pushing the boundaries of engineering in the way that Brunel did or market researchers sailing forth and forging an empire.

I have ranted enough on this subject as this forum and the magazine are not the places for fundamental changes in educational policy.

Paul

[graham mcrobert 2Participant @grahammcrobert2]

Posted by Paul T on 29/12/2012 07:24:08:

I wholeheartedly agree with Bob (and Trevor Baylis) as I have seen at first hand the changes in skill levels of tradesmen on building sites and the increasing lack of true craftsmen. Younger generation bricklayers and joiners, through no fault of their own, are sent into the working environment when only capable of carrying out basic work and usually have to be placed with older workers to be taught the finer details of their craft.

Where apprenticeships used to take 5 to 6 years and a typical apprentice spent the first twelve months just learning the basics now modern training courses last for 6 months after which the graduates are pushed into the world only just able to hold their tools correctly.

I was involved in reconstructing listed buildings in Liverpool and had a very difficult time filtering out decent craftsmen who could carry out detailed construction work and every one of these men were over 50 years old.

I can understand what Colin meant about the difference between scratch build and kit build as an inability for people to think for themselves simply because they have been taught to follow instructions developed by someone else i.e. computer games.

The worry is just how many practical skills are going to be lost forever as the current older generation dies off, this is now becoming very evident in the construction industry and I can foresee a time when building design and construction will be limited to basic shapes simply because of the inability of the workforce to carry out the designers intent.

Paul

You are spot on Paul as Im a 70s child and my dad was a joiner and I didn't know anything about joinery until I tried myself and learned the hard way.

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