How many people still scratch build?

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

costing by list of the very basics in glues, materials etc including all to get started on a very basic model in balsa /plasticard or basic kit, using the cheepest of materials. paints etc( and if anyone would like the list I will send it)

comes to a grand total to start on the simplest of kits,,,,,,,£267.34

as I say, starting from nothing with a stary eyed kid looking on, I would always advocate an RTR boat to begin with , and once the shine has gone off it alittle, that if the child and parent are still interested, then either a kit or scratch build,

But telling someone on the lake side that they can go home and build a scratch built boat for less than £100 (when they haven’t the glues paints tbasic tools etc) is giving false hope.

If anyone wants this list to prove what I am saying I’ll scan it by all means and send to them,

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Hello Chaps

 

Once a year, our club hold it`s Annual Auction………………….and it`s pitiful to see good models……………………………………………………. “Going for a song”

 

My nicely made Shearwater, scratch built, went for £12.00!………and that`s a typical price!

 

So, if you want a bargain, join a club……………….the beginner will need to anyway!

 

Just a thought……………Bob

[Charles OatesParticipant @charlesoates31738]

 Well, we have gone a  little way off topic here haven’t we?

   I suspect that any prospective newcomer  reading some of these post would be put off joining us.

   Whether or not it is possible to build a model for £100 is less important  than offering encouragement to anyone that shows an interest.

    I would like to add that my son made his first model many years ago useing Glynns’ excellent little book. Obviously it cost him very little because he nicked most things from me. It was a typical first model but I had the sense not to critisise. Now, many years later he is the best model painter I have seen ( not boats )

  The point I am rambling towards is that everyones route to modeling is different and no-one is likely to join us if we present ourselves badly.

 Charlie.

 

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Neil said, I don’t smoke, I drink very little .

 

Ive heard you spill more,

 

 

 

Oh hell, ARH, you’ve caught me out…………usually spill more when I get smoke in my eyes.lol

Ain’t there a song like that somewhere???

[David WooleyParticipant @davidwooley82563]

Bob has brought in yet another avenue to tempt would be modelers into the hobby and one that   does appear to be gaining in popularity.  Many of the shows host bring and buy, Ellesmere Portl was but one resent example. Commercial, trading in ready built  models [not to be confused with the fully functioning ready to run models} is fulfilling  a  need in the market . At one time I had an ambivalence over the motives and need for such a market. I’ve since changed my point of view.  In years gone by many “discarded” models would have been relegated to the attic. Now a new home is found and these models will sail again often being lovingly restored by their new owner. In some cases models will require refurbishment others will be ready for the pond… Either way they allow would be modelers or those with limited time or recourses to enjoy the hobby. The knock on effect is in the greater use of ponds and waters by a wider interest group.   Generally modelers do get a reasonable return for the model they wish to sell . As for cost and value of a model that is up to the individual. Cost in one thing value is quite another.  Yet another avenue ,The  large scale plastic kit   is fast increasing in popularity along with an expanding  selection of  models that can be converted to R/C.  Relative cost of these kits is small when compared to more established  leaders in the model boat market place.  On Sunday I visited the local pond . here there was one of the new breed of large scale plastic kits being put through its paces. It looked and performed exceptionally well.  The finishing  was outstanding yet the whole model cost under £100 and took  around 6 weeks to build.  Although scratch building at its  most cost effective would find it difficult  to compete with this type of modeling  .But of course it doesn’t have to. Modelers will  build, buy and  operate what takes there fancy  there is enough slack  in  the hobby to accommodate every ones tastes and pocket.

Dave Wooley     

[Glynn GuestParticipant @glynnguest59245]

If anyone would care to see my attempts to build a boat suitable for RC and beginers, whilst keeping the cost down to £15-20, then look in the Oct 2005 issue of Model Boats.  I admit to not including food and drink consumed whilst building the model, nor for that matter domestic heating costs, rates plus wear and tear on clothes.

Add a two function outfit (£30), an ESC (less than £20) and there is still room for a set of NiCD’s and even a charger (using the prices quoted in the latest HOWES ad in Model Boats) and some change ought to be left from £100.

GlynnGuest

 

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Yes Glynn, No doubt you could.

But I’m talking about someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subject, no tools, no paints, no glues, no fillers, and most of all no materials.

Where do you think those stocks come from.

If a person is starting from absolute scratch, they have to go out and buy even the simplest of things like a craft knife, cutting matt and steel rule, all of which cost money before they start.

It’s all right for you, me or any member of this forum to say that they can build a model for peanuts, but those who want to start from scratch have to start with basics, and that costs money..money that they have to shelve out before they even start  building a model for £15 – 20 .

By the way, a balso pack, cheepest I found this morning to build one of your models came in at £25.00 for a full pack.

Bearing in mind that the bystander wouldn’t probably know where to by cheep stock for a while until he got into the hobby would probably pay these prices and think he was getting a good deal.

Then if his local model shop was anything like mine and sell predominantly aero r/c he would have to send for equipment and then have to pay postage……all more costs.

So, you see, I don’t doubt that YOU could build one of your models for 15 20 quid and fully equipe it for under 100, but a newcomer with no knowledge, and no tools or equipment and stocks, couldn’t and it gives false hope to say he can.

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

After a couple of days away it was a bit disapointing to catch up on the posts and read some of the intemperate language on this thread. It really is unnecessary, detracts from an otherwise interesting topic and reflects badly on the Forum.

 

If it looks like things are starting to go off the rails then the last thing you should do is make things worse. It seems to me that there was a bit of a misunderstanding and things went South from there. As Paul has remarked elsewhere, it’s always best to review what you have said before pressing the “add posting” button. have you really understood what the other person is getting at?

 

I have no doubt that Neil is correct in totting up his kit costing, but he started with a kit which of course does bump up the price.

 

Advising beginners to start with a RTR boat is not a bad idea, as long as it has a decent radio that doesn’t bleed all over the spectrum but Glynn has demonstrated in his Model Boats articles and in his book that you don’t need to spend a fortune to get started. His lastest free plan project for a motor sailing yacht in the April issue, on sale Friday, demonstrates that you can have a great deal of fun from a very simple and cheap to make model which, with a 2 channel 27meg budget radio setup, should easily come in under £100. In fact I doubt if anyone has done more over the years than Glynn to promote a low cost practical and fun way to enter the hobby.

 

Colin

 

 

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

i am not doubting glynn’sincredible input to the model boat world.

In fact as stated befor I used to teach model boat building at night school and had a great amount of hisplans and build articles just for such purposes, and many built his models to start with.

But people do not take into account, all the little pots of humbrol enamel. sanding sealer, fillers, etc, etc which all have to be bought, and if you are not fortunate enough to have mates that you can borrow a little from then they have to be bought before you can build your model to completion.

It’s a fact that no one seams to be taking into consideration, but a big factor that won’t go away.

Even a rudder assembly, prop shaft and coupling will cost you £20.00 from a model shop.

A motor is a tenner, a battery is £12 quid, do I need to go on………it all adds up.

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Neil, a good point.And perhaps overlooked. And whats more, EVERY boat you build needs the basic stuff,scratch built or kit (a kit may come with the bits but you still pay for them). I think in part the various rambling stems from a topic for thread that can embrace a multitude of views, and is very wide.Ashley

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

do I need to go on

 

Not really Neil, I think you’ve made your point!

 

Colin

Edited By Colin Bishop on 17/03/2009 18:48:31

[David MeierParticipant @davidmeier28154]

Colins suggestion of first buying a RTR boat is what I did and it got me into the hobby. I am now at the painting stage in making an IC powered cracker box boat. The under coats and the top coat inside the hull are left over house paint, a bought spray can will do the outside of the hull.  The expensive bit was the new weed eater I bought for it’s motor $128.00 NZ (I could have looked for something 2nd hand). The hull frame was made from  ply, glue and timber left over from working on the house, the 1.5mm ply was a damaged sheet and was given to me and I made the ruder assembly and prop shaft myself from bits of metal that were around the place. The tube from an old TV aerial, a bit of 6mm steel rod, sheet metal etc. I dont have much spare cash to put into the hobby but where there is a will there is a way. 

David.

Edited By David Meier on 17/03/2009 19:08:41

[Peter FitnessParticipant @peterfitness34857]

It seems John’s original question, “Are we losing the ability to scratch build” has provoked some lively debate, with a few diversions along the way. It would appear, at least among the members of this forum, that many of us do still scratch build. Whether that can be carried on by future model boaters is an unresolved matter, and perhaps it is up to us to encourage newcomers to try their hands at scratch building.

 

On the subject of cost, I believe it is futile, and counter productive, to deliberately misrepresent the cost of a model, simply to attract someone to the hobby. That person will eventually discover the costs involved, so I think it best to be honest about costs, but point out the various options available to a newcomer. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the most significant costs in any model, whether it be scratch built or a kit, are the radio, ESC, propeller and prop shaft but, of course, the radio and ESC can be used in more than one model. Neil has made some very valid points about  the accumulation of resources that an experienced modeller has, which would not be available to a newcomer. This would be true of almost any hobby, though.

 

I happen to make my own prop shaft assemblies, and each one costs about A$9, or a little over 4 pounds. A 300 mm length of 4 mm stainless steel shaft costs $3.50, and the rest is brass tube, and brass rod for the bearings. I don’t value the time taken to make them, however.

 

Peter.

[The Long BuildParticipant @thelongbuild]

This is just my experience and thoughts on the matter.

My first build back in 1978 was from a free plan in a Model boats mag, model was called Bobby, Infact I think if you search on the main site there is mention of it with a rather nicely built one.

Because of this article about the boat I decided to rebuild it which is taking considerably longer than when I first knocked it up within the day.

As regards to costs I recon I could get the wood all in for less than £10 pounds, 2 tubes of standard balsa glue, some tissue paper,dope & Paint less than £10.00

Then a basic prop and shaft .£5-10

Electronics would be a bobs board (if you can find one) and a basic 2 channel controller and 2 servos.

The only tools I used were, a Stanley Knife, Junior hacksaw and a piece of wood to cut on (not the kitchen table)

In total I think I could have the model completed and running for less than £50 – £60 and would be a better transmitter than some rtl kits which get swamped quite easily putting kids off building there own as they loose interest the minute you are standing around waiting for the wind to blow the model back in.

Back in those days I used what was available , The motor came from and old dustbuster thing , the Batteries were those type you got in the old flashing beacons on road repairs, paint was standard house paint which has lasted through many part rebuilds of the model which has bee used for a lot of experimenting testing, In one case having an os engine bolted on the back (it worked for a few minutes before careering of down the Bridgewater canal.

 

Must Admit all the above costs are estimates , but would be interesting to cost it again with more accurate figures.

Larry

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Gentlepeople

To bring this conversation right upto date and include everyone who has contributed such a varied selection of differing views I would suggest that we put the theory to the test.

In this months edition of Model Boats there is a first rate plan, produced by Glynn, of a nice and easy to build motor sailer with a full set of building instructions and I challenge everyone to build this as cheaply as possible.

This would prove that scratch building is within the reach and finances of first timers and would show the old hands just how much fun can be had with our hobby i.e. the challenge to build not in detail but to produce a 1^st class model as cheaply as you can.

Glynn has already built his and so all he needs to do is submit the build cost

So the gauntlet has been thrown down….who will be brave enough to accept the challenge?

Paul

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

What a super stonking idea Paul!………………But supposing I`ve got all the materials in stock………………….Have I built it for nowt?………………..lol

 

Bob

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

does that take into account, me going out and buying all new tools, paints, sand paper, etc, etc before I start,(because I just haven’t got any of it in stock at all) just like a true beginner coming up to you at the lake side would have to do???

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I think it’s a bit pointless trying to assume what a “beginner” may or may not already have. He might already be into aeromodelling. Anyway, you could pick up a basic set of tools from Draper etc. at any market for peanuts.

 

However, I do agree that trying to put together a beginner’s list totalling under £100  for somebody building Glynn’s latest model would be an interesting exercise. I’m sure people would find lots of ways of shaving off a bit here and a bit there. Keep you all out of mischief anyway….

 

Colin

[tom thomasParticipant @tomthomas28293]

John,

I scratch build all of my model projects, as most of the models I build are not available as kits. Not that it would matter, I would scratch build it anyway. I also draw my own blueprints, sometimes using only photos and boat specs. I enjoy building models of “nonfamous” vessels. After all, 50 years from now how many models will there be of a Hatteras 80 Motor Yacht? I see my model building as a way of introducing this type of model into the collectibles of the future and capturing a neglected aspect of our nautical history. Models of the Titanic are a dime a dozen, but the types of models I build are pretty much one-of-a-kind. See my site at nauticart dot com for photos of projects.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Bob / Neil

If you have all the bits in stock then you can build it for nowt but as you are putting it together (and for you two that should only take a couple of hours) just think about what you are using and how much it would have cost to build and then let us all know.

To make it more interesting I will put up a prize of 5 hours CAD time for the winner, which means I will work on any design that the winner chooses (within reason) for free and email the drawings to them.

The winner is the person who produces the best model at the cheapest price just as if you were a total beginner, all prices for goods and equipment must be verifiable and Admiral Colin can judge the winner.

So get the plan out and start building (if you think your good enough )

Paul

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

you’ve put me on the spot now, paul. you rotter.

what am i looking at, what edition. and how much does the mag cost,

being a cheepskate can i borrow a copy, lol

how long have i got, and if it’s a balsa model can i cheet and use other timber in stock…..don’t do balsa.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Scratch Build Challenge

The object of the challenge is to build as cheaply as possible a motor sailer following the free issue plan of Glynn Guests “Goblin” April’s issue of Model Boat Magazine.

The basis of the challenge is to prove how cheaply it would be possible for a beginner to construct this model.

The basic rules are:

The construction of the model must follow the same basic methods of construction and level of equipment fit that Glynn describes in his accompanying article.

The competitors must do their very best to produce a quality model that will sail in average conditions (bit of breeze and a slight chop on the water)

The competitors must provide a verifiable schedule of prices to prove how cheaply they would have managed to construct the model regardless of any materials or tools that they might already have. (Remember you are building as if you are a complete beginner)

The schedule must include all materials, equipment and tools.

Things found in skips, online auction sites or at car boot sales will not be accepted. The cost of the magazine must be included.

All interested members must confirm their intent to compete (so get your finger out)

All entries must be posted on this site before the closing date.

Closing date is April 1^st 2009 (and you’ll be a fool if you don’t enter)

I hope that Colin will agree to judge the challenge

Paul

 

I am taking it as given that Bob, Neil, Ashley and Glynn will be taking part so don’t let me down lads. 

 

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Neil

 

Its Aprils edition and I dont care where you get one from but you must list the cost in your schedule.

You can use balsa, ply, plastic, concrete, steel or bin liners just as long as you produce a quality model that you will be proud to sail.

There can be as much cutting of corners and refining of details to reduce the construction cost but the final model must look just the same as Glynn’s.

 

And if we do get a good takeup with lots of members taking part I will increase the prize to 24 hours of CAD time.

 

Paul

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

does this mean i only HAVE till 1st april to actually build and finish it.
     it’ll take that long for me to think about it.lol

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Hi Guys,

 

Happy to judge as Paul suggests, with some advice from Glynn on the practicality of ideas put forward. I think we could trawl through the entries and put the final result on the website as an example of how to get into the hobby at minimum cost..

 

I suggest that we set up a dedicated thread to post the schedules on. As Paul says, you don’t have to actually build the model but you do have do demonstrate how it could be done.

 

Paul’s summary of the terms of entry looks fine to me. This could be a lot of fun. I may even enter myself on a non competitive basis!

 

Colin

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