Coal firing…

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Why not have a normal motor drive

And a coal burner and chimney, just for the smoke?

Bob

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Bob, because I have a nice steam engine! And I really don't need another motor boat!

I like planning them, I like building them, but playing with them soon bores me unless they are themselves involving, for which purpose I have classic/vintage yachts. (Veron Veronica and a '30s Marblehead).

Colin, I have the idea you're trying to get me to buy a magazine<GG>

Martin

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

Martin,

I think gas firing is more dangerous if your boat gets stranded or suffers a radio failure. With solid fuel the fire will go out and the pressure will gradually drop. I imagine that would happen before the boiler would run dry, but with gas, if the burner is still alight the boiler would run dry and no end of problems ensue- don't ask me how I know this! There's no more uncomfortable feeling than knowing the boiler has run dry, the boat won't go and the gas is still burning. It happened to me once and I subsequently kept a clockwork timer in my pocket to remind me when time was up. Of course, I had worked out the running times of each boiler/engine combination.

I think it's wrong to assume it's impossible to run a coal fired boat- in fact I know it isn't as I have seen it done. Garden railway enthusiasts also run quite small coal fired boilers successfully and with a boat it would be a case of knowing the boiler and coming in to tend it regularly. You do need a blower to get steam up with a coal fired boiler- basically a motor driven fan drawing air up the chimney.

Have you considered duel fuel? A coal fired boiler would have a grate with air space below and I think it ought to be perfectly possible to convert it to gas with a ceramic burner if required. If your coal fired boiler didn't work out you could convert to gas- just a thought.

If having a coal fired boiler in a boat is a dream of yours I wouldn't give up on the idea too readily, but it may take some experimentation and diligence. A local model engineering society who run live steam locos would be a good place to seek advice from people who know about these things. For instance, it would be useful to know how long a small boiler could be expected to steam without tending. However I should think it would be best to gain exprience with gas before contemplating coal.

Get that copy of KN Harris' book out and see what he has to say. And I don't think there's any such thing as a hassle free steamboat- gas is certainly cleaner and easier- but not without risk.I wouldn't even contemplate meths for serious boating- a friend had a Saito meths fired plant which was troublesome- much better when he converted to gas.

Ian

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Ian, thanks for your very well considered response. And I agree with all of it. I'd assumed the gas people could turn it off by R/C. To be truthful, it's all that extra clobber that I don't like about gas firing. I have trouble putting more gas in a lighter for lighting our coal fire, never mind some bought in tank in a boat.

I just have the memories of reading many LBSC articles about steam, from 5" gauge down to a loco in a matchbox, all coal fired and I just think it ought to be the same in a mid-sized launch. Meths, pot boier and an SEL engine are fine for a small one.

So, if fizzy thinks he can get me a design I can build for coal, but one which could, if pushed take a bought in ceramic burner for gas, I guess there's no excuse not to have a go at both, is there? After all, this new steam thing is a replacement hobby for my old cars, which had to go for lack of storage suddenly. so a bit of time in the shed is no different from a bit of time in the garden with chassis on saw horses.

Cheers,

Martin

PS, it's amazing how a Sun tug becomes a steam launch when you change scales and decks/fittings<G>

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

I certainly think it's worth getting a bit of experience with gas firing before moving on to coal firing but it wouldn't be beyond your capabilities to build a boiler, especially with your existing silver soldering knowledge. I think if I can do it almost anybody could! Of course you would need to test hydraulically first and then have the boiler tested by the local chaps- we have Cheddar Steam down here in the South West.

When I built my boiler I used a bought in ceramic burner and gas tank- none of this is cheap. The gas tanks have to be tested at a much higher pressure than the boiler and my home made one failed! Shame -as I was so proud of it with its flanged end plates. It didn't explode, but the tester detected minute bulging- it was being tested at about 300lbs/sq in.

I do believe it's possible to buy boiler kits with ready flanged end plates but it's not difficult to do with care. I don't know whether you have a lathe, but it helps to be able to turn the wooden forms for the end plates and skim the plates to fit the barrel afterwards.

Anyway, whatever you finally decide, I'm sure you'll have a lot of interest and fun.

Ian

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Ian, exactly…these things aren't cheap, especially since Maccsteam ceased trading. Why does it have to be tested to 300 psi? How on earth do you fill it?

Flanging isn't a problem. Metal bashing is pretty much what I do. I made new A-Pillars in aluminium for my son's Triumph Renown, left and right hand and thy fitted straight away. It's remarkable what you can do with plywood hammer forms, especially if you correctly made a flat support piece for the other side of the copper sheet to stop it bowing away from the hammer form.

I do have a lathe too, yes. And a disc/belt sander, bandsaw, etc. All I don't have is a milling machine.

Would it not be possible to build a gas tank with stays? Like a loco boiler?

Cheers,

Martin

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Haha! I've just looked up the costs of the above burner, gas tank and adapter. Ye Gods…. that comes to almost as much as a GLR boiler.

If those prices are typical, then it's coal or meths for me, without a shadow of a doubt!!

Martin

[Ian GardnerParticipant @iangardner62867]

I know, shocking isn't it. With your skills I reckon boiler making should be a doddle, and you have all the gear.

I think the gas tanks have to withstand the pressure of propane/butane mix and I know the test was about 300lb- I did feel a bit aggrieved as I only ever used butane which has a lower pressure and could only ever measure about 130lb'ish (it's a while ago) in my homemade tank with butane. But- safety first of course. I think on a hot day pressures can rise a lot.

I don't know about making gas tanks (obviously!) but I guess it's just a case of making them out of thicker material. KN Harris gives tables about different thicknesses of copper and their ability to withstand pressure. Of course, if you build a big enough boat, you can use the proprietary gas containers- which always seem very flimsy comapared with built gas tanks. I expect someone could shed light on that one.

I would definitely do some more research into coal firing, but I do have an ulterior motive- I'd like to see another coal fired boat!

Ian

[CookieOldParticipant @cookieold]

Hi Martin , L.B.S.C , Was the man , I made my own boiler for my 5 inch Simplex with no issues , Having said that Eazyflow is no longer available so i don,t know whats it,s replacement, GO FOR IT.

Dave

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Dave,

He was the master, no doubt. Nobody could write like him. These days, silver solder has no cadmium in it, so it doesn't flow as well. There's progress, eh?

Ian, I think we'll carry on with the coal idea after all. I can't be doing with all that clobber, although an original gas container would fit my hull, but I'd still have to buy a ceramic burner.

Nah, coal or meths it has to be. Or, of course, nothing at all. The mood that matters today have put me in, that's very possible!

Martin

[Andy StonemanParticipant @andystoneman15177]

Hi Martin,

I can understand your trepidation on which fuel to use, I like yourself am building a new boiler, I had thought of coal burning but decided upon the easier way out. I have definitely shied away from liquid fuels as they have their problems also. Meths has a particular problem, extremely volatile and i won't have a bar of it.

My preferred fuel would be gas, for a number of reasons, firstly cheap and easy to obtain, a cleaner fuel to burn with no residue or future boiler cleans, third and lastly much easier to control. I have followed the comments regarding help with a local railway model club, that depends on what part of the world you come from mate. You may find them very helpful but I haven't so far.

Andy

[Martin Field 1Participant @martinfield1]

Andy, I can see your points, but I'm afraid that I just can't justify the costs of all the clobber that gas requires and the fact that it isn't remotely scale to have all that stuff. There's a limit to all the brass bound b****ry boxes you want stuffed into a hull.

As to meths, I have never had any problems with it on my various toy steam engines.

I think controllability is a case of "get it going and set it off" The fire is only going to go down after all and I am not a huge fan of endless bombling round a pond to no real end. So it'll only be run for 5 minutes maybe and that only occasionally. I wouldn't, for instance, use it on the river up the road, in case I couldn't get to it. So accessible ponds only.

I have a friend who has experimented with meths burners which are both effective and safe for even bigger engines and boilers. He got one to work on a monotube "not quite flash-" steam boiler.

What you say about Model engineers has proved correct in my experience, but worst of the lot are model boat clubs! Monosyllabic, miserable, unwelcoming bunch of old farts. I was only today at my local model flying field and having a fine old chat with two fellows who didn't know me from Adam. What a shame I couldn't begin to afford model aircraft these days.

But then we have "fizzy", offering to design me a boiler. You can't get much friendlier than that!

Cheers,

Martin

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