Co Emissions From LPG Burning

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

 I’m concerned about the CO emmision from the funnel of my boiler fired by it’s LPG burner,

when testing the engine under steam in the workshop.Other than installing a general fan extractor,

does anyone know of a better method of  removal/extraction of this danger.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

Is this April fools day???

I doubt whether the co2 content that your steam engine will make will be anywhere near equal to what you will inhale when you drive your car to the local shops on any day of the week. in fact probably far less!!

I think you are looking for problems where there are none.

If worried go and by yourself a co2 and carbon monoxide alarm from a local hardware shop and put it in your workshop. when you’ve finished with it in there mount it in your bedroom, so it will be a permenant help in the future.

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

   Thanks very much,but no it isn’t  April Fool’s Day.  I don’t own a car,but I do already have a carbon Monoxide detector (They don’t detect carbon Dioxide y’know). It was CO–carbon MONOXIDE–issueing from the Boiler not steam from the engine, that was the subject. Anyway, I wouldn’t put a detector in my bedroom –unless the domestic boiler were there also.

But coming back to the subject,surely you must know tha the burning of almost all fuels produces carbon MONoxide and this does not exclude LPG..  So shouldn’t we all be concerned?

.

  

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Regarding your concern about CO 

The following is an extract from "The carbon Monoxide & gas safety society"

Carbon Monoxide (CO) is a toxic gas which can be emitted from any faulty heating or cooking appliance, petrol generator, or vehicle engine. CO can be emitted from any appliance burning combustible fuel e.g. gas (mains or bottled), solid fuel (coal, wood, etc) petrol, oil, paraffin. CO cannot be sensed using human senses. Special equipment, such as a flue gas analyzer, is needed to test appliances and/or the air in a room for CO. CO can poison in tiny amounts because it is taken up in preference to oxygen by the haemoglobin (the oxygen carrying part) in the blood. Less than 2% of CO in the air can kill in two minutes. Low level exposure of CO over a long period can cause brain and neurological damage.

The key word in this statement is "faulty" because as we all know faulty or badly maintained gas appliances will emit co and therefore kill people.

However if you have the required engineering skills to construct and operate a model marine steam plant then by definition the equipment will be properly maintained and the chances of deadly levels of co being produced would be nil.

If however you don’t have the necessary engineering skills to construct and operate steam-generating equipment then you stand more chance of being killed by gas or pressure explosion rather than exposure to co.

I would strongly suggest that you leave marine steam generation to the competent engineering experts who would not dream of exposing themselves to such basic hazards.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

if you are that concerned about emmissions damaging YOUR health, then I suggest you don’t steam it up at all as surely it will damage other peoples health, AND the environment as well with it’s "passive smoking".

 I think you are looking for problems where there aren’t any, either that or steam it up in your garden…….big extractor fan there .it’s called the wind!.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Neil

I’ve been playing around with steam engines since being 12 years old and nevr had so much as a headache with fumes

Paul

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

the only injuries i have e ver suffered, paul are a few singed eyebrows and my PRIDE when i have had to jump in the lake fullyclothed to retrieve the damned thing when it ran out of water and the smoke from the stack became bluer and bluer.

neil.

[mogogearParticipant @mogogear]

Compared to the crude burning efficiencey of the mamod or sbit fuel tabs used by many steam modellers.. I think the gas burners are much cleaner.

 Still- you aren’t even supposed o paint with oil based paints with out venting with open windows.

So i would suggest that modest precaution !!

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

  

Thanks for that,but of course I do already take the precaution you suggest,  particularly when brazing with rods which contain cadmium when making my boiler, gas tank,and burner.However,since becoming  a new member I didn’t expect to be  treated like some kind of idiot -,which I certainly am not – by other members .But what I did expect was that someone might perhaps come up with design faults that they may have encountered when making their own burners.Maybe not many boat modellers do!!

Meanwhile I shall finish the new burner based on the design of another very competant member.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Good Morning Arthur

I am glad that you have posted a reply.

I had not realised that you were a new member and I had thought that your original posting was a "tongue in cheek" comment, had I known that you really wanted genuine information on steam engine construction I would have responded in a more constructive manner.

As a new member you might not be aware of the somewhat caustic wit that prevails amongst some of the engineering members of our little fraternity and our predilection of not suffering gladly.

Perhaps you would like to post your genuine questions about steam-based construction so that we might help, or better still, learn from your experiences and any problems that you might have encountered.

Paul

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

    Good day to you Paul

Thanks a lot for that, I’m glad that we now understand each other.

Later on,–I’m in a bit of a hurry right now–I shall explain my original concern about CO

Arthur.

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

By the way may I address my last post to Neil also.

Arthur.

[neil hpParticipant @neilhp]

cheers,. Arthur.

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Good afternoon Arthur

I am looking forward to reading your progress reports………….any chance of some photos?

All the best

Paul

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

Hi Paul   Before I go on to other things, I’d like to explain the reason for my original concern about CO.

It was after I’d  fired up the boiler,thru’ the funnel (smoke stack?) that I noticed that if I held the flame from the "gas match" type lighter close to the funnel opening,another long blue flame was visibleupward. It was this flame which I assumed was the result of the emission of unburnt gas that I took to be CO.it wasn’t the smell that I took notice of as I know that CO doesn’t smell.The burner which I had made together with the gas tank– tested to 300psi,–, worked very well after experimenting with position of ceramic, position of jet —No.5—and also size of air holes,producing a nice forceful blue burn with just a tinge yellow at it’s edge.

Arthur
  

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Good morning Arthur

Not sure that your burn should have a yellow tinge this usually indicates an incomplete burn however I do realise that looking at colours is very subjective and that one persons account will vary from another’s.

I presume that your blue burn is very similar to no4 in the following photo

if not what size / dia is your burn chamber and air holes as you might not be getting enough air into the combustion mix.

Paul

[Gerald Gardiner 1Participant @geraldgardiner1]

Hi Arthur,

You state

"I noticed that if I held the flame from the "gas match" type lighter close to the funnel opening,another long blue flame was visibleupward. It was this flame which I assumed was the result of the emission of unburnt gas"

If this is the case I think you don’t have enough air comming in with the burner. What colour is the flames on the burner? Is the ceramic glowing ?

Regards,

Gerald

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

Good Morning Paul  I’ve been having a bit of difficulty getting back to the forum to tell you 

the latest.  Since my last post  I’ve scrapped the original  burner–the problem being  poor combustion as you suggested–  and made a new one from the plan by another member which works perfectly.   I originally  built the three cylinder engine as just an interesting  project in the Model Engineer magazine which it was said would run well on compressed air at 20 psi. Then  I figured it would run better on steam,which led me to making the boiler and burner.   I’m currently making several mods.to theengine,but when complete,the layout of the completed steam plant -weighing in at nearly 10ibs- looks suited to driving a model boat.  However I’m a model engineer more than a model boat builder.  Not knowing much about the technicalities, I’d now like to build a suitable boat  which would accomodate  my plant .  I’ve been looking at plans of steam launches of the Windermere type but  feel in need of some advice as to how to choose a craft of suitable size,displacement,draft,etc.

I would prefer to build it from scratch. I shall be grateful for any advice proffered.

   Arthur    P.S Hope I haven’t bored you   

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hello Arthur

 

Its very nice to hear from you again.

 

I think that the windermere type steam launch is the best way to showcase a handmade steam engine and given the weight of plant I would estimate that a model of 48in or larger would best suit your needs however you would have to take into account the narrow beam of such a model.

 

Looking forward to seeing some photos of your build.

 

Paul

 

p.s. never bored talking about boats

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

Hello Paul,   Thanks for your thoughts on a model for my self-built
steam plant.  I’ve just bought and received the plan of Puffin Muffin
which you may know. It was a great surprise to me to see that it has
a flat bottom. Is this unusual do you think for such a craft, either model
or full scale??.  However ,it seem admirably suited to my need although
I have little knowledge of scratchbuilding,-some aspects of the plan are a little hard for a novice to understand-I may have to scratch some
other members brains to help me in the process. Maybe there is a
source of more explicit info.such as an article on the construction of
this particular model.But onward and upward as they say,I’m really looking forward to this project.I only ever built three other models in the whole of my 78 years,two were 30in.cabin cruisers way back in 1955,–
one of which I still have!! and the other, in 1967,a 28in.Boing-Vertol
twin rotor helicopter in aluminium,also which I still have.Anyway enough of my prattle,hoping no more “bits” are falling off .Best Regards Arthur.
                   
 
 

[Dr John BoothParticipant @drjohnbooth43899]

Arthur 

During our research into glycol / steam Paul asked me to check the levels of CO being produced from the LPG burner. 

Whilst in the cramped confines of the vapour cabinet the levels of CO rose to high levels quite quickly and I had to ventilate after 15minutes however when working outdoors the CO dissipated into the atmosphere and no discernable readings could be observed. 

Without reproducing all of the data, which is both long and tedious, I recommend that when operating any type of LPG burners that you either work outdoors or in a well ventilated space. 

John

[Arthur RidleyParticipant @arthurridley74259]

Hello John I’m greatly impressed that you are an Astro Physisist Thank you very much for that useful information re.CO,and thanks to Paul for his request to you.  It’s hard for me,-and I suspect a lot of other modellers-not to to be in our

workshops working on our projects in this cold weather.  I imagine most of our “workshops ” being of the garden shed variety and not much bigger than mine which is

10×6 which when firing up the boiler demands that I open the door at one end and a 

window at the other for adequate ventilation.However when turning —No,not me,the lathe—and other operations,to keep warm and keep the workspace dry,I bought a 

calor gas cabinet radiant heater, which is primarily for  use indoors ,that incorporate CO

control.( With the heater on it doesn’t matter if I open door and/or windows)    Now,this made me wonder what kind of control is used and if we could use or adapt it for our purpouse–poorpuss–porpoise–or even–purpose? operating our burners..Perhaps this

makes a bit more sense to my very first post.Kind Regards   Arthur,

 

[Author]

Posts