Car Design

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

A few months ago, our 18-year old red Nissan Micra GX became a "write-off" because of gearbox transmission failure for which no spares were available. We then got a 2nd hand Nissa Pixo, two years old, 14,000 miles and in very good condition.

I like the air conditioning in summer, and no problem on the open road – but.

Don't like the silver colour, but didn't have any choice in that when we got it as no other colours available. Sometimes have to search for it my number because so many cars are now silver! Can put up with that though.

What I really dislike is the fact that I can't see the bonnet from the driving seat. Very difficult negotiating high-rise parking in town. I have been told that I will get used to it, but how can I if I can never see the front? I have started parking in an open air car park that is nowhere near as restricted in space.

Are there any cars produced today where you can see the bonnet? When I asked, I was told that it is "streamlining," but as all cars can go faster than the maximum speed limit, why do they need to be streamlined!

It seems that every "improvement" in anything these days means that the result is not quite as good as that which it replaced!

Bob

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Bob,

I would assume that cars are more streamlined mainly to reduce fuel consumption, and that this in turn is done both to comply with emission targets (enter your favourite VW joke here) and to apply to the buyer's finer feelings (i.e. his/her wallet) by offering better fuel economy.

For my part, I drive a fairly recent car, and can definitely see the end of the bonnet from the driver's seat. It might help that I'm reasonably tall (6'2" or thereabouts), I guess, but I think that in all modern cars I've driven, I've always been able to see the end of the bonnet.

However, when looking up the Nissan Pixo, I can sort of see what you mean; the bonnet is both very short and sloping; I've never driven one, though, so don't know what that would be like from a bonnet-viewing perspective.

/Mattias

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Bob Wilson on 07/01/2016 09:22:11:

…..

Are there any cars produced today where you can see the bonnet? When I asked, I was told that it is "streamlining," but as all cars can go faster than the maximum speed limit, why do they need to be streamlined!

It seems that every "improvement" in anything these days means that the result is not quite as good as that which it replaced!

Bob

It's not 'streamlining' – it's pedestrian safety.

Modern cars are designed so that pedestrian mid-speed impacts occur at shin level, and the body is then progressively swept onto the bonnet, where head impact can be minimised. See **LINK**

This means you need a bonnet which progressively slopes away from the driver. Result – it's hard for the driver to see the end of the bonnet. But aftermarket parking sensors could be fitted…

 

Edited By Dodgy Geezer on 07/01/2016 10:13:33

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

DG,

Of course!

Anecdotically, I actually know this only too well; my youngest brother was hit by a car when he was, I think, 7 or 8; luckliy the speed was fairly low but more importantly, it was a small car (a Fiat 126, I recall) and he was swept over the bonnet, across the windshield and onto the ground with damages limited to a corner broken off a front tooth (probably from hitting the side rear-view mirror) and a concussion; to this day he does not remember the accident.

I, on the other hand, remember it only too well, as he was in my care when it happened, on our way to the local outdoor pool. The 10 minutes or so before the ambulance arrived were some of the worst in my life, the only thing going through my head being "I've killed my brother" on permanent repeat. Brrr.

So yes: more pedestrian safety built into cars gets my thumbs-up!

/Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 07/01/2016 10:30:01

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Pedestrian safety might be the excuse, but I don't think the authorities are very much concerned with pedestrian safety. They never seem to bother about cyclists ignoring red lights or riding on the pavements.

Neither do they bother about those by 4 x 4s with square fronts and bull bars, or flat fronted lorries and heavy goods vehicles, or buses. It would be quite easy to slope them, but they don't!

Same with ships. The straight bow was discontinued supposedly for its power to smash into another ship in collision, causing extensive damage. So, they went onto sloping soft bows so the damage would be above the waterline and the "soft" bow collapsing minimised the damage. Then the bulbous bow came out, to improve "streamlining" where a hugh bulb under water could smash its way (below the waterline) into anyone unfortunate enough to get in the way!

Parking sensors may be the answer, but my trust in them would be limited. (Having spent all my real working life in electronics).

My main question: are there any small cars produced where you can see the bonnet? As far as I know, there is no law against them.

Bob

 

Edited By Bob Wilson on 07/01/2016 10:33:14

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

My wife has a VW Lupo which has a visible bonnet…just.

I fall into the 4×4 bull bar category and have the same problem in estimating where the nearside front corner of the bull bar actually is as the ping pong table sized flat bonnet obscures everything. I solved the problem by welding a short pole to the top of the bull bar.

As for pedestrian protection I find that a cow catcher works very well in protecting my car from pedestrians, cyclists, small cars and snow drifts.

Paul

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Bob,

If by "small" you mean as small as your current car, I can, off the top of my head, not think of one that is not a variation on the same theme; I suppose the only way of really finding out would be to go around a sufficient number of forecourts, and have a trial sit in the various smaller models on offer to see if there is one in particular where you would be able to see the bonnet, given that this would depend on a combination of the design, your height and your preferred driver's seat settings in the given model.

/Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 07/01/2016 10:56:00

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Bob, The current design of car bonnets incorporates a requirement for a space between the bonnet panel and the engine block. It was found that people being thrown onto bonnets often sustained serious injuries because there was no 'give' in the bonnet panel due to the hard and sharp engine block and components being immediately below it. So a crumple zone has to be added above the engine which in turn means that all modern cars with front engines will have relatively high bonnets. The downside, as you say, is that it makes it difficult to judge exactly where the front of the car is. The answer is indeed parking sensors which are in fact pretty reliable. If they are covered, say by ice or snow build up then they fail 'safe' by screaming at you as soon as you switch on the ignition. They also have a range of 3-4 feet so if you are moving slowly into a parking space you will have a rough idea of when to stop and if you don't hear the preliminary beeps then you will be alerted that maybe there could be a fault.

Of course you could alternatively stick a thin flexible rod on the front of the numberplate which projects above the bonnet line and even fly a little flag from it…

Rear parking sensors are a no brainer in my view, the cost of repairing just one relatively minor reversing ding would immediately pay for the installation. It can be difficult to work out where the back of the car is as well if it has a sloping hatch etc.

Bull bars are of course child/pedestrian killers and should be removed when vehicles are being driven on public roads, there ought to be a law against them.

As far as ships are concerned, what you say is indeed true but bulbous bows have been around since the 1930s, Bremen and Europa had them. They are of course now pretty much universal but I would imagine that the construction is quite lightweight (they are there to add buoyancy too) and would crumple up quite easily unlike the rigid stem forging of the old straight bow ships. Still, in solving one problem you can easily create another.

Colin

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

I generally switch on my headlights if I'm parking in a tight space. I have reversing radar in the Toyota which seems to work fine and the reflection of the headlights from whatever's ahead usually serves just as well. I simply have to remember to switch the things off when I get out, or it yells at me!

It's sort of lateral thinking, but forwards and backwards…

Suit yourself.

DM

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Thanks for replies. I had thought of fixing rods on the front corners, but then I discovered the front of the car is not metal, or at least non magnetic. Also "health and safety" might start howling about them being dangerous, possibly with some basis in fact! The front of the car has never been any problem until now. On the Micra, I would just move slowly forward in the high rise parking blocks until the front bumper gently bumped the front of the parking space. I can't do that on the new one, because the number plate is on the front of the soft bumper and it would damage it. It would also damage any pedestrian that I inadvertanley ran into as well! I never back in anywhere in the new car because the back window is smaller than the Micra and visibility is reduced (don't suppose they thought of that!). It is the two front corners that bother me because they are out of sight. As far as I am concerned, they are sloping the bonnets to make the cars look more streamlined and attractive, and using pedestrian safety as the excuse! London taxis are all very square at the front, and I saw an ambulance and a police car with straight fronts this morning. They should have sloping fronts more than anyone else because they are legally allowed to break the speed limits when necessary!

At the moment, I have solved the problem by using a different outdoor car park with plenty of space, and get 3 hours for £2 instead of 2 hours for £2. It has added eight minutes to my walking time, which is insignificant.

As for parking, I don't know why they don't use diagonal parking in these high rises. The space between the two halves would be much wider, and parking even with sloping bonnets would be no trouble at all!

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Yes, diagonal parking is frequently a much better option for getting in and out of provided that you can drive forward to exit the parking area afterwards.

Re police cars I thought the police used ordinary cars with their own equipment added. Of course they do use 4/4 types as well with flat fronts. Being able to break the speed limits is a bit irrelevant as at that speed it wouldn't matter what shape the front of the vehicle is! The safety measures are intended to have benefits in the most common relatively low speed collision situations, people crossing the road in a 30mph limit for example.

Large lorries could and should have sloping fronts but apparently this would make them too long when using current trailer units.

Incidentally Bob, I do hope that when parallel parking at the kerbside in your old car you didn't just edge forwards until you gently bumped the car in front….

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

No, I was OK parallel parking at the kerbside with the old Micra because of its good visibility aft, and I knew that the back window was the back of the car. As I could see the bonnet in front, I had no need to touch the car in front, although I always went right into spaces with a wall or a bar in front until I touched it. I have never tried kerbside parking in the new one!

Bob

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

With 4x4s the addition of bullbars (which are regulated) makes very little difference to pedestrian survivability as being hit by a square fronted 3ton block is usually sufficient to kill most things.

Why do I drive a 4×4…it comes from working on large construction sites where I needed to get through knee deep mud, why do I still drive 4×4 now I am retired….the roads these days are filled with uncaring speed freaks and a 4×4 means that I will survive a crash with anything smaller.

My 4×4 is great at parallel parking as no matter how small the space I can always manage to get in.

Paul

ps I've been driving for over 40 years and never been in an accident.

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Paul,

I think Immanuel Kant, had he been a member of the forum, might have had a thing or two to say in reply to your last posting …

/Mattias

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Hi Mattias

You shouldn't take to much notice of my more flippant postings as when I am bored I tend to write some antagonistic rubbish.

On a serious note Immanuel Kant ant is one philosopher that I would have liked to meet and have a chat with.

All the best

Paul

[Dodgy Geezer 1Participant @dodgygeezer1]

Posted by Bob Wilson on 07/01/2016 10:32:57:

Pedestrian safety might be the excuse, but I don't think the authorities are very much concerned with pedestrian safety. They never seem to bother about cyclists ignoring red lights or riding on the pavements.

Neither do they bother about those by 4 x 4s with square fronts and bull bars, or flat fronted lorries and heavy goods vehicles, or buses. It would be quite easy to slope them, but they don't!

Same with ships. The straight bow was discontinued supposedly for its power to smash into another ship in collision, causing extensive damage. So, they went onto sloping soft bows so the damage would be above the waterline and the "soft" bow collapsing minimised the damage. Then the bulbous bow came out, to improve "streamlining" where a hugh bulb under water could smash its way (below the waterline) into anyone unfortunate enough to get in the way!

Parking sensors may be the answer, but my trust in them would be limited. (Having spent all my real working life in electronics).

My main question: are there any small cars produced where you can see the bonnet? As far as I know, there is no law against them.

Bob

Edited By Bob Wilson on 07/01/2016 10:33:14

The major pressure for sloping bonnet design in cars is the voluntary NCAP test protocol. I suspect that car manufactures abide by this because otherwise it would be incorporated into direct EU legislation. As regards sloping lorry fronts this news item may be of interest.

So, essentially, there is considerable pressure to develop vehicle fronts which slope downward, and most new vehicles will conform. Your best bet might be to buy an older car – possibly vintage?

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Getting a vintage car is not a solution because of the expense and lack of spare parts! EU Legislation – that explains it of course, and I should have known!

Looks like I will just have to put up with it. We only use it for local shopping, and using outdoor carparks adds a bit of inconvenience, and the exercise will do me good.

Thought it was great when they banned the use of pesticides on gardens – criminal offence as well! Saw gardening firm spraying neighbours garden with pesticides and reported them! Result "It's OK for businesses to use pesticides , but don't you dare to use them! Flexirules again!

Looking at big expensive cars like Rolls Royce, most of them don't have sloping fronts, neither do London cabs, or buses, or lorries, or ambulances, or post vans. I would think it is pretty traumatic getting knocked down with a sloping front as much as a flat one, but it is the speed that does most of the damage.

I wonder why they allow so many toxic chemicals in food, medicines, vacines, light bulbs (energy saving, of course) if they are so concerned about our welfare. Flexirues – flexirules – flexirules ad infinitum!

Glad I am 71, almost 72.

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Bob, you sound a LOT more than four years older than me!

Colin

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Colin,

Flexirules have been annoying me for years! 1977, – Oil tanker lying alongside another bigger tanker pumping oil across at Galveston Bar. Captain gives me a pile of telegrams and says "get these off as soon as possible to London, New York and European offices. I flash up big transmitter and am beavering away all afternoon, with captain occasionally coming in to see how I am getting on. Three hours later, just sending last one when someone gives me a private telegram, so as I am connected to Portishead radio, I start sending it. Captain comes in "What the Hell do you think you are doing, are you trying to blow us all to pieces?

Me – "I have been sending messages that you told me to get away as soon as possible for the past three hours – what difference one more!"

Captain "Mine were ship's business!"

From which I concluded that it was OK for me to get us all blown to pieces as long as it was on ship's business!

Flexirules are on the increase everywhere and seem to be unstoppable!

I was told not to go aboard the sailing ship hulks in the Falklands because they were "too dangerous," but no-one bothered about us sailling through the minefields for three months or more!

Not like this all the time though – young at heart – but I do hate flexirues!

Bob

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Posted by Paul T on 07/01/2016 16:09:12:

Hi Mattias

You shouldn't take to much notice of my more flippant postings as when I am bored I tend to write some antagonistic rubbish.

No worries, Paul — that is pretty much the spirit in which I read it.

Now, if we're to believe Monty Python, though, Kant might, except on rare occassions, have been less than ideal company …

/Mattias

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