Battle of Jutland

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dear All

There is a documentary on C5 tonight at 9pm examining the biggest naval battle of WW1, It was one of the major turning points of the conflict and debate has raged about who was the actual winner.

Paul

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I will watch but am not unduly hopeful, lots of rubbish gets peddled about Jutland.

Colin

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Well, I was actually quite impressed with this programme. Obviously it had to be simplified to fit in the time slot but overall the material was pretty accurate with some excellent images of the sunken ships. It did pick up on a lot of the essentials very well.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

Thanks a lot, Paul

Enjoyed the programmer, it was very interesting

It seemed an awful waste, scuttling all those German ships!

The new Lazer gadget, has brought new light on the sunken ships on the sea bottom

Titanic is slowly melting away now

Bob

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

There is an excellent book on the archaeology of the Jutland wrecks:

**LINK**

The surveys have resulted in a lot of new information. For example when the battlecruiser Queen Mary blew up the ship broke in half near the foremast. The bow section rapidly sank but the stern section carried on over and beyond the sunken bow before capsizing and also sinking. Similarly, at Jutland, all the witnesses to the destruction of the armoured cruiser Defence were convinced that the ship had been utterly blown to pieces in a huge explosion but the survey revealed that most of the ship is still sitting upright on the seabed with the bow and stern blown off. It appears that one of the end magazines exploded and the blast wave swept through the ship, particularly along the ammunition passages serving the 7.5 inch gun beam turrets, which all had their roofs blown off, before setting off the main magazine at the other end of the ship. It is quite possible that the bottom was blown out at the same time which would explain the ship's almost instant disappearance. Somewhere in that holocaust over 800 men died.

Like Titanic, the wrecks are dissolving at an increasing rate and it is reckoned that by the 200th anniversary of the battle there will be nothing left.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

The battle was an appalling cock up, the two British commanders had totally different agendas and it is surprising that the British fleet didn't suffer even greater losses.

At the end of the battle the British had 6,094 killed, 674 wounded, 177 captured, 3 battlecruisers sunk, 3 cruisers sunk and 8 destroyers sunk (total 113,300 tons sunk)

The Germans had 2551 killed, 507 wounded, 1 battlecruiser sunk, 1 dreadnought sunk, 4 cruisers sunk and 5 torpedo boats sunk (total 62,300 tons sunk)

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Pommern was a pre dreadnought Paul.

I wouldn't go so far as to describe Jutland as a 'cock up' any more so than other major battles. Serious mistakes were made on both sides. There were materiel deficiencies in both the British and German fleets. There were differences in equipment and of course the constantly changing visibility was a major factor. Jutland was an immensly complex engagement which, as you say, is still debated even now with all its 'what ifs'. I have around ten books on the subject and there is always something new to learn about the influences on the battle.The background of the various commanders makes fascinating reading in itself as they began their careers in the Victorian era.

However, the result was that, despite its greater losses, the Grand Fleet commanded the battlefield afterwards and the Germans retired to their bases. They were very lucky indeed not to have lost more ships than they did as a number were in virually sinking condition.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

Sorry for not going into detail as I didn't think that anyone would be interested about the individual ships. Instead of listing them I have included this link to a Wikipedia page.

I should explain that I have very strong feelings about the incompetence of senior commanders during WW1 (both on land and sea) I see them as ritualistic, hidebound relics from a age before mechanised warfare who should have been replaced by people who had, at the very least some sort of grasp on how a modern war should be conducted.

The phrase Lions led by Donkeys is very apt.

Paul

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Paul,

Yes I do agree that the senior commanders in WW1 were the victims of their early career development environment during the Victorian period. Andrew Gordon's book ' tThe Rules of the Game' gives an interesting insight into the social and professional interactions which moulded the Navy's Admirals. Unquestioning obedience was expected of subordinates at all times. Admiral Tryon attempted to encourage initiative to some extent but it all went horribly wrong for him.

There was however the problem that nobody really knew how a modern war should be fought as there was no useful experience to draw on during what Gordon refers to as 'the long calm lee of Trafalgar' Among many other things, the exponential increase in fighting range in the early part of the 20th Centrury brought about huge problems with gunnery control. It was no longer possible for the individual gunlayer simply to point his weapon directly at the target and pull the trigger, much as they did in Nelson's day.

And then of course nobody really could accurately assess the menace of torpedoes so the tendency was to play safe especially as one hit could potentially sink even a battleship as was almost the case with HMS Marlborough.

The whole subject is a fascinating area of study as are the personalities involved.

Colin

 

Edited By Colin Bishop on 01/05/2019 15:14:37

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Colin

There were certainly some very outspoken personalities during this era, one of the forward thinking was John Fisher who became First Sea Lord in 1914, he was the driving force behind Dreadnought class battleships, torpedo armed destroyers and changing the fleet from steam to oil power.

For me his most farsighted contribution to the Royal Navy was pushing submarines into main line naval strategy which directly led to some very inventive vessels such as the M Class boats which,as many know is one of my areas of study.

Paul

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Yes Colin.

Easy to do but unfair to judge history and behavior by modern standards. The first time modern warfare really was understood was during the Spanish civil war where the opposing sides were assisted by other European military powers practicing for the real thing that sparked off in '38 and '39.

The German fleet escaped more extensive destruction by some measure of luck and to an extent failure of signal exchanges at quite junior ranks.

The telling factor was that despite the carnage and terrible losses on both sides, the British navy were able to sustain those losses better than the Germans who had a much smaller fleet. The German fleet was effectively sterilized and didn't put to sea again en masse until the move to Scapa Flow as part of the armistice reparations.

I have a very interesting book called "From Jutland to Junkyard" which chronicles the salvaging a large part of the scuttled fleet. Absolutely amazing how they accomplished this work. Ironically, a lot of the salvaged steel was sold back to Germany and movement of the hulks was assisted with German tugs. Hitler thought that bit was humiliating so put a stop to it.
It was a dark period with some unfortunate shootings and further deaths long after the war was over but the British mainly saw the scuttling as treachery. It is quite clear however that had the roles been reversed, the British Commanders would have done the same thing and described by their countrymen as patriots.

If you find the book, it is a great read.

Tim R

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I've not actually read that book Tim but I have read several articles dealing with the salvage of the German fleet by Ernest Cox. It was indeed an amazing work of salvage.

Did you know that a couple of German destroyers ended up in Portsmouth Harbour and are still there?

**LINK**

Colin

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

I didn't know that Colin and I have spent loads of days sailing in and around Portsmouth Harbour! Another fascinating place along with Gosport and Haslar.

Cox and Banks sold out to Metal Industries Ltd run by a Robert W McCrone. He was equally determined as Cox but better organized and a better business man. He made money out of the venture whereas Cox was reported to have made a loss on raising the ships but a profit on his scrap metal business Cox wanted the kudos above all but McCrone invested in better machinery and developed a machine to make liquefied oxygen which was easy to handle and transport to the ships were vast quantities were used by the cutters. In other respects however, he followed the methods pioneered by Cox. He is reported to have made on average £50,000 per ship raised and that was a lot of money in the early '30s.

A lot of very brave and hard working men involved.

Tim R

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

I have sailed around Portsmouth harbour a lot myself in the past. My boat was based in Chichester Harbour. In the mid1990s we sailed virtually alongside the Royal Yacht. which confirmed it really did have a glossy blue hull. Try that now with a naval vessel and they would probably shoot you!

I visit Portsmouth quite frequently and have an annual ticket to the dockyard. Always something interesing to see.

Recently they were selling the special book produced to support the Jutland exhibition at half price – still not got round to reading it in detail but it is a good record of the exhibits on show which I visited a couple of times.

Colin

[Bob Abell 2Participant @bobabell2]

While we are on the subject of Juggernauts, what do we think about the latest ships?

Namely…..The gigantic Aircraft Carriers!

Is there a role for them in the company of the major unfriendly countries?

When a single missile could sink them quite easily?

Any comments?

Bob

[Tim RoweParticipant @timrowe83142]

Bob

War springs many surprises. It was thus in the war relating to this thread, also in the later world war and probably in all the lesser wars since. There is no reason to doubt the same would apply in another major conflict.

Personally I do think the world is becoming a dangerous place again. Carriers have an enormous screening force and missiles can be tracked from launch although un-trackable missiles are claimed to be in development. All can fail however in a cyber war which is where I think the differences would be made.

Anyway let's get back to happier topics.

Tim R

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Captain Bob

This might help answer your question link

Paul

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Reading all of this scary techno-stuff makes me almost relieved that I'm 67 and not 27.

Dave M

[Colin BishopModerator @colinbishop34627]

Interesting report yesterday that the French defence budget is now bigger than Russia's. And recent reports state thet most of Germany's military hardware is broken and unusable.

Colin

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Dave

The little bug–rs will still kill you no matter how old you are but I agree that this level of technology is frightening.

Paul

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