Ballast

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

I think the world has gone completely mad. Went to the local scrap yard today to buy 2kg of lead pipe (ballast for Resurgam).

"Sorry mate, can't sell you anything unless you have a waste disposal traders licence"

What! I only want a bit of lead pipe to melt down for a model boat keel.

"If you come back with some other scrap metal we can possibly exchange it for the small amount you need"

Next day, weighed in 98kg of old ally castings (been clogging up my garage for ages).

"Here's your receipt, can't pay you mate, need your driving licence and passport".

Next day arrived with enough documentation to get me into Buck Pally.

"Here's your cheque mate less £xx for your lead – but read this (Government document) – metals must not be exchanged – we've done you a big favour"!

What a lot of messing about to get hold of 18 inches of lead pipe!

Got that of my chest. Move on.

Len

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Len

You could have gone to a Plumbers or Builders merchants and bought new lead flashing without all of the messing about.

Paul

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Paul,

Seen the price for 2 kg?! £xx was a lot less. However, cost isn't really the issue. It's just that more and more legislation in the UK is stopping normal people doing normal things. You almost need your passport these days just to buy a tube of glue! Sorry, becoming a Victor Meldrew!

Len

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

Unfortunately metal theft is such an issue nowadays that this sort of legislation has been forced upon us, otherwise church roofs get stripped and cables dug up, statues cut off and had away.

Ashley

[Paul TParticipant @pault84577]

Ah the halcyon days when you could have a 'weigh in' for some hard earned beer tokens. No I didn't strip church roofs or dug up cables but I did manage some sites where a little scrap had to be removed. (3x22t wagon loads a day for 3 weeks )

These were the happy days before the government tied up and gagged the scrap industry.

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Ashley,

Understand and totally agree. But, if I can't get hold of a bit of scrap lead in an honest manner for mi boat's keel without having to have a licence then we're coming to a sorry end. Buy the stuff new? What's that doing for planet conservation? Should sign off "Victor" but won't

Len

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Nuff said Paul!

I think the moral for all model boat builders is to hang on to every bit lead you can get your hands on. After my recent experience I certainly shall. Now, off to church………….!

Len

[Bob WilsonParticipant @bobwilson59101]

Some time ago, when I wanted ballast and couldn't find any lead, I went to a hardware shop and looked for the cheapest nails I could find. These were U shaped staples, quite heavy. They worked fine as ballast, I poured molten wax over them to stop them rusting or moving. Nails may not have been heavy enough for Resurgam though!

Bob

[Kev.WParticipant @kev-w]

I'm with Len on this, yes metal theft is a problem these days, people weighing metals in need to be licensed in order to prevent thieves from cashing in on their misappropriated goods, but why do they want to stop people from obtaining a bit of metal that others have thrown away, that will be paid for & made use of ?

Makes one wonder if the legislator has shares in the NEW metal supply industry & doesn't want anyone using metal unless they buy it NEW from them.

People buying a bit of metal from a scrapyard are actually supporting the legal disposal of metal, by making a licenced yard a going business, it's no different to buying your bits of metal at B&Q. (apart from the price)

Edited By Kip Woods on 22/10/2014 21:11:27

[Charles OatesParticipant @charlesoates31738]

For ballast in my Emden I used old car brake pads, free from my local garage. They are not as heavy as the same bulk of lead, and no good if you want to melt and form them for a keel. But for most scale models they are a free and useful way of balasting. I was suprised how heavy these iron lumps are. Worth a try.
Chas.

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

I am certainly no lawyer nor particularly up on matters legal (so please apply the usual caveats to the following); however, the above discussion made me curious, so I decided to look up the Scrap Metal Dealers Act 2013 (see **LINK**). Having read this, and also the accompanying guidelines (**LINK**) I'm inclined to think that the man at the scrap yard may have been at least partially barking up the wrong tree.

Yes, in order to carry out a business as a scrap metal dealer, one does indeed have to be licensed. However, that means "a business which consists wholly or partly in buying or selling scrap metal", whereas for example "tradespersons will not require a scrap metal dealer's licence if buying or selling scrap metal is an incidental function of their business (eg being a plumber or electrician)". Mutatis mutandis one would have thought that this tradesperson licence exemption should apply equally to an end-consumer sale, in casu to a modeller …

It is, however, true that a scrap dealer must establish the name and address of any person to whom they dispose of scrap metal, and also keep a record of that transaction for three years. Likewise, it is likely that exchanging one scrap metal for another falls foul of the rules on cashless payments, which only allow payment by crossed cheque or (traceable) electronic transfer.

Given the above, I would suspect either that they did not fully know what they were talking about, or that they found it not quite worth their time to do all the paperwork for the sole purpose of and rather meagre profit margin on selling a few kilos of lead, and thus tried to fob you off on the straightforward sale but were willing to do a deal that included a larger amount of metal changing hands … ?!

/Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 23/10/2014 07:49:00

Edited By Banjoman on 23/10/2014 07:49:42

Edited By Banjoman on 23/10/2014 08:17:28

Edited By Banjoman on 23/10/2014 08:19:25

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

I once met an honest scrap-metal dealer – but only the once!
I suspect that a lot of the metal which is stolen from railways, church roofs etc never sees a UK scrapyard but goes straight into freight containers headed for Eastern Europe and beyond. For my stock of ballast I bought a length of lead flashing from a builders' merchants quite a long time ago; the current price is frightening!
DM

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Today's lead settlement price on the LME (London Metal Exchange, **LINK**) is about £1.27/kilo, whereas lead flashing (**LINK**) can be bought new for around £4,45/kilo and scuba diving ballast lead shot, if bought in bulk (**LINK**), can be had for around £4,50/kilo.

Certainly not cheap, compared to what lead used to cost, but not impossibly expensive either, I'd say …

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Once more, my curiosity got the better of me, and made me do some simple research, which shows that lead raw material prices were pretty stable from the late 1980s up until around 2005, fluctuating between £0.20 and £.0.40 a kilo, but that since then have gone up on average about five to six times those figures. See **LINK** for more details … So yes: from that perspective, the current prices are indeed rather frightening …

/Mattias

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

**LINK**

9Kgs = £40. Not a lot if, like me, you only use about 200-400g per model, but if you've a big tug to ballast then this is not the cheapest way. I always suggest using bigger batteries in those cases. You might as well have the weight doing something useful, and a 12v 5A SLA battery works out at only about 50% more expensive per Kg than sheet lead flashing.

DM

Edited By Dave Milbourn on 23/10/2014 10:02:45

[Kev.WParticipant @kev-w]

Good advice Mr. Milbourn, batteries are the best form of ballast, but only if you sail 'electric', but for the likes of myself, hanging a 3 kilo battery off the bottom of your Marbleheads keel, don't quite do the business. (if you know what I mean)

Edited By Kip Woods on 23/10/2014 17:27:10

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Just so everybody knows I paid my local scrap metal dealer £1.50 a kg so £xx was actually three quid. Not bad at all given the LME price quoted by Mattias of £1.27 so I don't think he was trying to be Del Boy. He probably was just fed up with all the paperwork involved.

Also, the 'tradespersons' exemption is interesting but needs checking out as I'm not sure a private 'hobbyist' slips within the definition.

As I said earlier, the bonkers thing about this job is that I wasn't trying to get rid of scrap. I was there with cash/cheque book/credit card trying to buy it from a licenced dealer!

Somewhere there must be a clear exemption in this lot for the private individual wanting to buy small quantities (lead, steel, brass bar whatever). Will do some research.

Len

[Amy jane SeptemberParticipant @amyjaneseptember49770]

Hi Len

I just recycled a couple of old car batteries (yes I can hear the safety police gasp) for the 6lb of ballest on my Tancook Whaler. No guestions asked and the price was right (zilch)

[ashley needhamParticipant @ashleyneedham69188]

AmyJ. I knew you would have the right answer!

HOWEVER, having splashed out on a roll of roofers lead, it is very handy for ballasting boats. Easy to cut and lays nice and flat on the bottom..is nice and clean.

Although I used a fair bit on the Lotus, there is more than half a roll left and this represents £40 or so, but will last me for few years yet, and so in the grand scheme of things is not that expensive…considering the cost of the hardware you will be fitting out anything with,

DM is as usual correct…fill the boat with batteries, not lead!

Ashley

[Len Morris 2Participant @lenmorris2]

Hi Amy,

What do you mean by recycled? Ballast is dead weight and it can be anything from lumps of rock to pig iron. As Ashley said, lead is quite good because in strip form it is clean or if recast it can fit your boat a treat. Hope you're not sailing about with loads of sulphuric acid! How do you get the lead out and what do you do with the goop?

Len

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

Back to the legal garbage for a moment. I can find no reference to qualifications or licences being required for BUYING scrap metal, just for selling the stuff. After all the risk is that stolen scrap is sold to a dealer for cash and that transaction is kept off-record to aid onward disposal, again off the records. Unless it's governed by some overarching legislation (e.g. because it's poisonous, dangerous or militarily restricted etc) then there's no reason why anyone shouldn't be allowed to buy scrap metal as long as he is prepared to supply his name and address to the dealer to complete the seller's statutory records. The law isn't always an ass (except when it comes to taxation……………..)

Kip
Forgive me for forgetting those who sail things propelled with sticks and rags, but you and I had been having some chat about speed controllers so it didn't occur to me that you were a yachtie too. Hair-shirt time.

DM

[BanjomanParticipant @banjoman]

Section 1 of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act states:

1. Requirement for licence to carry on business as scrap metal dealer

(1) No person may carry on business as a scrap metal dealer unless authorised by a licence under this Act (a “scrap metal licence”).

(2) See section 21 for the meaning of “carry on business as a scrap metal dealer”.

and said Section 21, Article 2 goes on to define "carry on business as a scrap metal dealer" as:

2. A person carries on business as a scrap metal dealer if the person—

1. (a) carries on a business which consists wholly or partly in buying or selling scrap metal, whether or not the metal is sold in the form in which it was bought, or

2. (b) carries on business as a motor salvage operator (so far as that does not fall within paragraph (a)).

3.  

In other words, I think a license is required both for buying and for selling, but only if done in the context of a business of which the sole or a part activity is buying and selling scrap metal.

By inference, anyone who buys or sells scrap metal outside of such a business does not need a licence. For example, the scrap metal dealer from whom Len Morris 1 tried to buy that lead apparently had no problems with Len selling a rather large quantity of other scrap metal to him.

I would thus be inclined to think that as a private person, you are allowed to buy for example scrap lead for ballasting a model boat. Of course this does not mean that a scrap dealer is obliged to sell to a consumer, for example if they think that the paperwork involved is too burdensome or costly in relation to the profit made on the sale. Section 14, Article 3 of the act says about disposal of scrap metal that

(3) Where the disposal is in the course of business under a site licence, the dealer must record the following information—

1. (a) the description of the metal, including its type (or types if mixed), form and weight;

2. (b) the date and time of its disposal;

3. (c) if the disposal is to another person, the full name and address of that person;

4. (d) if the dealer receives payment for the metal (whether by way of sale or exchange), the price or other consideration received.

I can imagine that for a profit of perhaps less than a pound, a dealer would be a tad reluctant, particularly if their main activity involves selling on in bulk to recyclers or similar.

/Mattias

Edited By Banjoman on 25/10/2014 14:13:55

Edited By Banjoman on 25/10/2014 14:14:44

Edited By Banjoman on 25/10/2014 14:15:13

Edited By Banjoman on 25/10/2014 14:16:05

[Dave MilbournParticipant @davemilbourn48782]

In other words:

a) Only scrap metal dealers need a licence to deal; and

b) If one tells you to clear off you don't hang about to argue the minutiae of the Scrap Metal Dealers Act with him ('cos he's probably got a big stick and an even bigger dog).

Notwithstanding the above I've found that the careless flourishing of hard currency usually weakens the resolve of such tradespersons (well, now that I don't have my HMC&E VAT Officer's I/D card any more!).

DM (Ogre – Retired)

[mike farrellParticipant @mikefarrell21522]

Hi All Given all the legal speak published a mockery is made of it all as ,on ebay I can purchase as much lead as I want so long as I pay the exhorbitant cost of postage .

On average £1 PER POUND

I only need a further 30 lbs so I,ll scour Lincolnshire countryside (no church roofs).

Anyone with a suggestion for ballast please Michael

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