Help with motors and controllers

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Help with motors and controllers

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  • #15131
    Ken Shimmin
    Participant
      @kenshimmin74925

      Hi all. I’ve got a slightly odd one for you! I hope you don’t mind me posting it here.

      I’m building an ROV – a remotely operated vehicle, AKA robot submarine. I need some advice on where to source motors and speed controllers to go on it.

      Basically, I need high torque, low RPM (up to 5k RPM tops I suppose) brushless DC motors, and controllers that are capable of running them in both directions. The motors will be attached to impellers (probably ducted) of up to 10cm in size (haven’t decided yet). 

      Power will come from a tether cable, and will probably be 12v (but thats flexible as well) so is effectively unlimited.  Control will be by a computer through an interface board that can output analogue (0 to 5 volts) or PWM signals. It should be able to drive normal R/C ESCs without a problem.

      The ROV is likely to be about 1m long by 50cm wide by 40cm high, and not very streamlined. Expected weight is around 20kg. I intend to use 5 motors – one to provide vertical control, and the other four to provide forward, sideways and rotational control.

      It’s important that the motors are brushless DC, since its very hard to make a brushed motor that works at depth (not impossible, just harder than making a brushless one do the same thing!) Motor weight and size are not really important.

      Can anyone suggest a good source for motors and  speed controllers that might be suitable? The other factor of course is cost, and the cheaper the better!

      Any help would be much appreciated.

      Thanks,

      Ken

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      #15133
      60watt
      Participant
        @60watt

        Hi Ken,

          Very interesting! 

            Several years ago a nearby consultant electronic engineer shelved plans to develop tethered ROV’s for fish farms. Knowing I had a sub model,he duly dumped a pile of ROV industry magazines at my feet. He had discounted brushed motors on account of the electrically noisy armature winding.

        Brushless motors and pdf data are in the RS and similar engineering industry catalogues.

          Model shops keep wholesale supplier catalogues with page upon page of parts e.g. Robbe,Graupner,Perkins and can order in what they don’t stock.These publications list minimal technical data as is the norm for the modl trade.

        If you are willing to PM me your level of technical knowledge I may be able to supply a few relevant hints on interfacing with rc model equipment

        Tom Edison

        #15143
        Telstar
        Participant
          @telstar

          Hi Ken

          Have a look at this site, http://www.h2orobots.org/hoeto.htm         altho its an american site it has some interesting ideas  like useing Low Vlotage (12v dc ) submersable pumps (readily available in UK ) as the basis of a thruster unit.

          I have been playing with brushless motors including running them submerged, they can be seriously over propped (overloaded) while in the water, but the bearings dont like it . Also you need to be careful with motor lead length (wires between motor and controller) it does affect the motor performance.

          Hope this helps Tom (a different one)

          #15286
          John Fisher
          Participant
            @johnfisher98429

            i am trying to build a submarine, and iam trying to find a wpc,clear one would be nice , to contain twin motors,all the gear and a ballast,

            any help or advice would be welcome. thanks.

            #15821
            Mike Davidson
            Participant
              @mikedavidson22772

                    

                              Have you thought of applying to BAe Systems for a job, because they do for a living what you do for a hobby. Don’t overcomplicate your design, keep your targets achievable, and bingo before you know it you will be carrying out underwater surveys for the admiralty hydrographic service. if you look at BAe website, look at their mine counter-measures ROV You wouldn’t have thought you could have so much fun with your clothes on….. Mike D

              #15858
              Ken Shimmin
              Participant
                @kenshimmin74925

                Hi all, sorry I haven’t replied on here, I’ve been a bit busy!

                 Tom and Tom – thanks for the info – useful stuff!

                 John – I don’t know if you found what you need, but you could have a look at waterproof enclosures for cameras…. they are usually clear, are sealed for relatively high pressures and are fairly cheap.

                Mike, thanks for the suggestion. I have considered working for an ROV company. I don’t know what formal experience BAe would want (although maybe I have what they need!) I’ll have a look on their site.

                I’ve bought a cheap brushless motor and ESC from my local model shop, not really to use on the ROV, more to test that I can control it from a computer interface board etc. I’ve come accross a problem I wasn’t expecting – the ESC is rather too smart. Its designed to work with a variety of Lithium and Nicad type batteries, but it detects battery voltage and current and refuses to start up unless the power meets its requirements.

                 Obviously a useful safety feature on a model plane (which is what its designed for) since you don’t really want to take off and if your battery isn’t charged, but annoying when you are trying to test out control systems!

                I’m in the position of not knowing if my PWM control board will be able to generate the right signals for an ESC to use, since I can’t supply the right power. I very nearly bought an industrial transformer, but I’m loathe to spend the money on that if there is someting more fundamental wrong with my design.

                I imagine I’m going to have splash for a lipo battery (or see if an old laptop battery will work?) in order to test things out first. Its frustrating because I feel the power issue is the last bit of  "research" I need to do before I can order up a load of bits and actually start the fabrication.

                The more I look at the components I have, the more tempted I am to actually build my own ESC… and then I wonder whether it wouldn’t be easier to buy a coil winder and build my own motors as well! It all seems to be getting more complicated than I hoped!

                Anyway needless to say I’m writing it all up, and I’ll put it on a website at some point. 

                Thanks again for the help, and if anyone has a suggestion for powering a small ESC and motor on the workbench on a tight budget, I’d love to hear it!

                 Or, if anyone has built their own brushless ESC, or knows where I can get plans, maybe you could give me a few pointers?

                 Ken

                #15859
                Ken Shimmin
                Participant
                  @kenshimmin74925

                  Oh, I forgot to mention that I’ve bought a cheap "ducted fan" with motor as well. Its a smaller diameter than I was hoping for (around 7cm) and will want to spin at a much high RPM (its designed for about 30k whereas I was hoping for something like 3k) but with a 580w motor on the back I’m hopefull.. 5 of them should at least allow me to test a prototype, even if the bearings go after a few hours of sea-time.

                   I think the fan is designed as a sort of poor mans jet engine for large model planes. Fan and motor cost me £15.20 including delivery from hong kong!

                  Quality seems surprisingly good, although due to the lack of working ESC (see above!) I haven’t been able to test it yet!

                   Ken

                  #16098
                  Subculture
                  Participant
                    @subculture

                    Take the motor back, it’s no use for your porject.

                     Also I’d forget about brushless motors for the time being. The controllers are far more expensive  and for a modestly powered model the improvement in performance  is marginal.

                     

                    #16101
                    60watt
                    Participant
                      @60watt

                      Ken,

                      What is your goal for this ROV project ?

                      The thing about analogue electronics is news to me!

                      Andy,

                      http://dinkykitty.com/dinkykitty-forum?func=view&id=60&catid=8

                      #16394
                      Ken Shimmin
                      Participant
                        @kenshimmin74925

                        Andrew – brushless really are the best things for this project. Theres several reasons:

                        * Brushless motors are much easier to "marinise" – the simplest way is just to coat the windings and the magnets with two-part paint, or embed them in a block of resin, and run open to the seawater (which provides good cooling as well). Brushed motors have brushes which you need to protect from seawater. (Bearings are a different issue, but can be run wet for at least a little while before dieing!)

                        * Brushless motors are much easier to pressure proof – because there aren’t brushes to protect, theres no need to expensive and failure-prone shaft seals etc. Pressure is a real killer, and very hard to keep out – better to just let it in.

                        * Most subtly, but possibly most importantly, brushless motors are "clean" – they don’t produce electrical noise like brushed motors do. This is important when the ROV will have onboard computers and delicate sensors (fluxgate compass, accellerometer, sonar, possibily magnetometers). 

                        Performance and efficiency aren’t very important – I have unlimited power (down a tether) and weight and size are of marginal importance (its going to be a big beast, probably at least 20kgs).

                        I may end up making my own motor and controller combo, its something I’m researching at the moment. This would allow me to make something much higher voltage (useful when trying to send power down 300m+ of cable). It would also allow me to build something slower revving.. I’m lazy enough to want to avoid this though!

                        Tom – Goal is to produce an ROV with similar capabilities in terms of depth and sensor platform to a SeaEye Falcon (http://www.seaeye.com/falcon.html) but with more on-board intelligence – I would like to be able to use my ROV to experiment with programming for Autonomous Underwater Vehicles (even though mine will be tethered). Simple tasks like station keeping, navigating to waypoints and performing grid searches would be a first step. 

                        Reasons for building the ROV… well, its mainly for my own interest, and to learn more about ROVs. I’m a sailor and a diver, and I have a background in robotics and control systems, so it seems to fit in nicely.

                        Some people have asked if I could commercialise it… the answer is, I don’t know. Certainly theres a market out there if they can be made cheaply enough – the SeaEye falcon is one of the cheapest ROVs, and a basic one starts at around £70k – I’m hoping to build mine for around 1% of that cost!

                        What did you mean about the analogue thing? Not sure what you are refering to!

                        Good bit of detective work to find the website BTW – and I realise I haven’t actually stated my goals in any of the articles, so I’ll have to correct that I suppose!

                        I’m still struggling with the whole controller/motor issue, although due to "real life" I’ve been doing other stuff and haven’t dedicated much time to it.

                         Ken

                        #4985
                        Ken Shimmin
                        Participant
                          @kenshimmin74925

                          For a robot submarine…

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